- That was an $80 million bandaid and it kept the hospitals open.

- What's your level of confidence that they'll be able to remain open and operating?

- 50-50, and maybe that's a little optimistic.

You know, I look back on my use of social media as something that I use as a tool when what I was already trying to do wasn't working as effectively as I thought it should be.

- Welcome to "One on One."

I'm Ian Donnis.

Peter Neronha has a little more than two months left as Rhode Island's Attorney General.

Term limits block him from a longer tenure in a job that he says he loves.

Over two terms, Neronha has made his mark by taking on political corruption, clashing with Governor Dan McKee, and of course, popping off on social media.

Now in this exit interview, Neronha reflects on his tenure, his frustrations, and what's next.

Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Neronha, welcome to "One on One."

- Thanks, Ian.

Good to be with you today.

- We're coming up on the end of midterm elections.

Are you concerned that the Trump administration is gonna intervene in the elections either before or after it's over?

- Yeah, I'm concerned.

I think we're ready for whatever the Trump administration tries, much like we were when he took office for what he tried in the immediate wake of the election or his swearing in and what followed.

So we're ready.

I think some of that could play out in Rhode Island, but I think it's more likely to play out other places around the country.

But whether it's working in concert with other attorneys general or working individually here at home, we'll be ready if there is any election interference.

- You've joined with your fellow Democratic attorney, Attorneys General in dozens of lawsuits against the Trump administration on an array of issues, but we see how the Supreme Court has granted President Trump presumptive immunity on criminal acts while in office, and he often moves quicker than the legal process.

So what does this mean for accountability if there's a need for accountability with President Trump?

- Yeah, look, I think the key is injunctive relief.

And in the cases that you've mentioned, Ian, particularly the ones that we filed in Rhode Island, we have had universal success on getting the president's efforts to take away congressionally-allocated funds Rhode Island stopped by getting an injunction, having that injunction maintained at the circuit level, and they have not been overturned by the Supreme Court.

Now, certainly there have been some actions that we've taken collectively at AGs that have not been as successful.

But when it comes to funding, for example, we've won those cases.

And so the way to prevent the president from acting in a way that is beyond his authority is to get to court quickly and get injunctive relief.

- If Democrats retake the White House in 2028, do you expect that President Trump will vacate the office of presidency?

- Yeah, look, I think it... If he doesn't, that would obviously be an extraordinary moment in our history.

I think the circumstances will be such that he will have to whether he wants to or not.

- We see how masked ICE agents continue to detain people on the streets of American cities.

ProPublica recently reported on how ICE had detained more than 500 American citizens.

Do you think there has been an appropriate response to this level of activity by ICE?

- Well, certainly people have made their voices heard.

I think the Congress needs to do a better job of oversight.

I think that may happen in the wake of the midterm elections where control of the Congress will, I believe, change from Republican control of both houses to Democratic control of at least one house.

But I think that kind of oversight pressure matters, and I think it's necessary to ensure that ICE is acting within the bounds of their legal authority.

I'm not someone who thinks that the nation can survive without a immigration enforcement mechanism.

The problem here is the leadership, from the presidency all the way down to leaders in the agency, and the inability to recruit or the unwillingness to recruit and hold accountable, and hold to the same level of accountability the agents in that agency like they used to in the past.

- Peter Neronha, your office recently sued Facebook alleging that it fell down in policing itself on scams and deceptive advertising on its platforms.

There's a school of though right now that the big tech powers, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, the big players in AI, are so powerful that they are beyond accountability.

What do you make of that?

- Well, look, I think that's why attorneys general have to step up.

And I think other states and other AGs will step up and take action against people like the ones you mentioned, Ian, and their companies, because Rhode Islanders lose if we don't.

And the reality is, and I saw this in the case- - Is that enough though?

I mean, is that just nibbling around the edges, or can these gigantic corporate interests really be held accountable?

- Well, they can be held accountable if you put enough pressure on their pocketbooks.

So for example, Meta just settled with the states, most of them, for a certain kind of misbehavior.

That doesn't mean they get a pass going forward from other kinds of bad behavior.

We saw this with the Google case that I brought along with the team when I was US Attorney where Google was claiming that, "Oh, we're doing everything we can to keep opioids out of the country and not allow people to buy online."

When in fact, the steps they were taking were nowhere near sufficient enough, and they knew it, sort of papering over the problem.

That's exactly what we allege against Meta in our most recent case where there are these scam ads, and you can see them if you just go on Facebook, for example.

And they're in our complaint.

We lay them out there.

The Current just reported on that today with some really good examples of what you'll find there.

And they're cheating Americans out of their pocketbooks, and AGs have to step up in that kind of situation.

Look, it's only by putting pressure on these companies that they're gonna change their behavior.

- As you say, you served as US Attorney Rhode Island's top federal prosecutor before your two terms as attorney general.

And during all that time, you've prosecuted a number of corruption cases, former Central Falls Mayor Charles Moreau, North Providence counselors, former Rhode Island House Finance Chairman Ray Gallison.

It seems like corruption cases are less frequent now.

Does this mean that there's less corruption in Rhode Island?

And if so, why is that?

- Yeah, I'm not prepared to say that, Ian.

I think one of the challenges is this.

Certainly the federal government needs to play a major role here as we did when I was US Attorney.

I had the great benefit of having prosecutors with both the time and the experience in these kinds of cases.

But even more important than that, we had a Federal Bureau of Investigation that was committed to doing this kind of work.

I'm not certain that because of what's coming from the top in the Trump administration, both first term, Trump one and Trump two, that's not where the FBI's focus appears to be, number one.

You know, more locally, you know, you're really only as good as what we used to call is our trip wires, meaning, you know, law enforcement developing the kinds of resources, informants that can get inside, whether it be a criminal organization of the more traditional type, La Cosa Nostra or drug trafficking organizations or, you know, political corruption, which definitely has a scheme usually involved.

It's not only one player in all the cases, some of the ones you mentioned and others.

To get inside those schemes and investigate them from the inside, it's very difficult to make a corruption case after the fact.

You really have to be investigating in real time.

And I think we just haven't had the investigative, frankly, ability to make those cases recently.

Now, would I like to believe that corruption has gone away after all that history that you laid out?

I'd like to believe that, but I can't sit here and tell Rhode Islanders that I'm absolutely certain of it.

- During your time as Attorney General, you've often been a lonely voice in calling for more long-term and strategic planning on Rhode Island's healthcare crisis.

Do you feel like we're any better off on that now than we were a few years ago?

- Well, at least we're paying attention.

I remember getting sworn in for my second term and bringing it up in my remarks because I was trying to bring some attention to the need to move quickly.

We haven't moved quickly enough.

We haven't been proactive enough.

We haven't taken enough real action, but at least we're paying attention.

I think in the next year, with a new speaker and a new governor, there's opportunity to think bold or boldly, and I think government has to take that opportunity.

The Senate has been strong here under the leadership of President Lawson.

So I think there's an opportunity, but nibbling around the edges isn't gonna fix it.

- You've focused a lot on the CharterCARE hospitals, Roger Williams Medical Center and Our Lady of Fatima Hospital.

You insisted on the creation of an escrow fund as part of a change in ownership there some years back, and that probably kept the hospitals operating when they would've otherwise closed.

Nonetheless, there's still a lot of question about their finances.

You've always said it's far from a sure thing that they'll be able to remain open.

How do you see the outlook right now?

- You know, that was an $80 million bandaid.

It was a big bandaid and it kept the hospitals open, but the truth is that those hospitals haven't made money, even poorly managed by Prospect, the out-of-state company that owned them backed by private equity for a long time.

Even setting that aside, these hospitals, because of the way Rhode Island does reimburse them for healthcare, and because we have a large Medicaid population, because these hospitals serve a big part of that population, because the state hasn't invested enough in Medicaid reimbursement rates, those hospitals are always gonna be challenged unless we change the fundamentals of how we pay for healthcare.

So yeah, I'm still concerned about those hospitals because they are safety net hospitals, which means they treat a vast majority of our state's less economically fortunate residents.

And because of that, they're getting less money coming through the door because of the huge disparity between Medicaid, Medicare, and commercial rates.

- What's your level of confidence that they'll be able to remain open and operating?

- What's my level of confidence?

50-50, and maybe that's a little optimistic, you know, in the next, you know, two years down the road.

Unless things change, maybe less than that.

Ian, I think we're gonna know by early next year whether those hospitals will be able to function in the way they function in the past.

That may be impossible.

It may take some restructuring of the kind of services they deliver.

Those are all things that I think need to be on the table, but until we think more boldly about healthcare, these kinds of problems are gonna happen, are gonna continue to happen, manifest themselves even in our biggest and best economically stable systems.

- One more question on this topic.

Ken Block, independent candidate for governor argues that the state did not do its due diligence before providing $18 million in taxpayer money to help keep these hospitals afloat and to finance their most recent transaction.

What do you make of that?

- Well, it's just hard to put that statement in context, right?

So I'm not sure what Mr.

Block would have done differently.

Would he have not, for example, put $18 million as a general assembly and the governor did into that reserve fund to make bond payments if necessary?

You know, going back to that point in time, it was either frankly receivership or this deal.

And receivership would have been a real challenge to see whether or not the hospitals came out of receivership as functioning entities at all.

So, you know, it's easy, I think, to say, you know, not enough due diligence.

I think everybody knew what the situation was, the question was then, and it remains today.

In a healthcare world where there isn't enough revenue coming into the system, how do you keep safety net hospitals open, and what happens if you don't keep them open?

What's the impact on the other hospitals and how bad could that situation get?

So it's a much more complicated question than the one that Mr.

Block poses with respect to him.

- Peter Neronha, let's talk about another contentious issue, energy and utilities.

You faulted the State Division of Public Carriers for giving our public utility to the company PPL, and in your words, screwed rate payers until we went to court and won.

There's a lot of talk right now in the campaign season about energy costs.

How do you see what needs to be done to improve the situation for consumers?

- Yeah, well, first of all, we need a consumer... We need the kind of consumer watchdog role that we have done in this administration continued in the next.

And I think the Division of Public Utilities and Carriers really needs to step up in the next administration and have a better sense of what it's... And I'm talking about leadership here, not the rank and file in the DPUC, but really understand what its role is and frankly be skeptical of what big energy, in this case PPL, is promising us.

Every piece of infrastructure that they put in, we ultimately have to pay for over time.

And so they're always gonna wanna build more.

If it's necessary, then okay, but let's be honest about what they're building and why.

And so I think understanding energy and energy policy and being in a position to take on big energy companies like PPL, Rhode Island Energy is really gonna be important going forward.

- Speaking of campaign season, you endorsed Democratic candidate for governor Helena Foulkes earlier this year.

She's faced a lot of criticism from rivals about her oversight of opioids while leading CVS Pharmacy.

Why do you find that criticism unconvincing?

- Well, look, I think what's really important, Ian, and has always been important for me for the last couple years as I've, you know, gotten deep into my two terms and frankly getting frustrated with how our state government is operating.

It's just not aggressively enough for Rhode Islanders.

It's not posing enough leadership.

What really is important to me is who is best positioned to lead our state forward.

And whether it be in the primary or now, the fact is, at least as I see those facts, is that Helena Foulkes has the experience and the leadership and the smarts and the toughness to lead the state forward.

And that's what's critical.

Now she's answered to the best of her ability as I see it, the opioid situation on her tenure, and she's the one who should answer those questions, not me on her behalf, but what I'm looking for in our next governor is strong leadership, capable leadership.

And I believe that Helena is the best person by far for that job.

- To your point, what difference would you expect that strong leadership to make if she wins and succeeds Dan McKee with whom you've certainly had a very fractious relationship?

- Yeah.

You know, I think, setting my relationship with the governor aside, and there are lots of reasons for that relationship being what it is, I think what needs to happen in state government... First and foremost, the way to build an organization is to recruit good leaders around you.

I think that, at best, the governor's cabinet has been workman-like and I think in other instances, frankly, has been weak in its leadership.

And so that's where you start.

You have to get great people into those positions and great people will recruit other strong people throughout the organization.

I've really found that.

I found that as I built my team out with people who came with me from the Department of Justice, Steve Dambruch and Adi Goldstein, first and foremost, by bringing them in... And Kate Sabatini is ultimately my civil chief.

They really helped me build out the organization in a way that I think really functions well for Rhode Islanders.

I think that's how you build a great team.

I think Helena can do that.

I'm confident she can, but that's where it starts.

Build your cabinet with the best possible people you can, have high expectations for them, go through those agencies with a fine tooth comb to identify your strong performers, and enable those strong performers to help lead the organization forward.

And collectively, you build a kind of state government that can serve Rhode Island as well.

There's no reason why, you know, we should be spending so long to fix the Newport Bridge Road deck or the Jamestown Bridge Road Deck, things that I'm familiar with because I live down there, obviously.

It shouldn't take as long as it's taken for the Department of Health to figure out what to do in the context of a large merger.

Those are just some examples of what I'm talking about.

It shouldn't take us to go to court to force the DPUC to figure out what's right for Rhode Island rate payers.

So that's what the next governor needs to do, and I believe she could do that.

- You've had a very, shall we say, freewheeling style on social media during your time as attorney general, sometimes criticizing sharply Governor McKee.

What do you say to critics who believe that that was contrary to the decorum and neutrality that people should expect from the attorney general?

- You know, I think the attorney general, at least as way as I view the role, is it's important for me to speak out when things are happening that aren't right for Rhode Islanders.

How do I put this?

If you're acting with a decorum that some people expect all the time, the fact is that people won't see what it is you hear, what it is you're trying to say.

I use social media to bring attention to the things that I though were critically important, whether that were things which said something about the character of some of our state leaders, whether it said something about the work that we were trying to do, whether it said something about how the court system was operating.

And so, you know, I look back on my use of social media as something that I use as a tool when what I was already trying to do wasn't working as effectively as I thought it should be.

- What was your most satisfying accomplishment and your biggest frustration during your two terms as attorney general?

- You know, the team, first of all, I've had a great team around me, and I will miss them when I step out the door.

They're gonna go on to do their own great things because many of them still have chapters to write.

You know, I think... And so when I think about that, there's a lot of things that I'm really grateful for.

The diocese report took a long time to put together, but really impacted people's lives in a meaningful way.

I've heard that feedback.

We've already talked about the work that we did to put that escrow in place that kept two hospitals open.

You know, building a team of investigators, our urban violent crime initiative that allows us with Providence and Central Falls and Pawtucket Police to arrest a guy in Barville, a postal worker who's got dealer quantities of narcotics and firearms, building out our ability to test ballistics at our own office, doing some criminal justice reform initiatives.

The list I think is long, Ian.

I'm proud of it.

- And the biggest frustration?

- You know, I think, I feel like coming from the federal court system, I feel like the state court system moves very slowly.

I think that Judge Montalbano, to his credit, is as concerned about that as I am.

So that's been a source of some frustration for me.

You know, the federal system has the advantage of having a much lower caseload.

I personally preferred practicing in that system more than I did in the state system.

And I don't mean that as a criticism of the individuals working within that system, but I did find the system frustrating, its slowness and frankly sometimes the ability to get across.

when we tried new things to a judiciary that wasn't always open to the office flexing in new areas.

- You are now supporting Kim Ahern, Democrat, to succeed you, but you supported Keith Hoffmann in the primary, both worked with you in your office.

Why did you support Hoffmann in the primary?

- Well, Keith worked more closely with me and for a longer period of time, nearly seven years.

You know, Kim Ahern was a line prosecutor and a capable and good one, very good one when I was there, but for only a handful of months, I think maybe six months before she left to work for Governor Raimondo.

I encouraged, you know, members of my team to run because, again, I'd seen them work with me.

And so that's why I endorsed Keith.

I though he was a really strong candidate.

But elections matter and Kim ran a great campaign.

She convinced the voters of Rhode Island that she would be a very strong attorney general, and I've since met with her, and I know enough about her that, beforehand even, that I think she'll be a terrific AG, and that's why I'm supporting her now.

- Flock cameras are very polarizing right now.

They can be a key tool for investigators, help solve the Brown shooting, but people have a lot of privacy concerns about them.

What do you think would be the best way forward?

- Yeah, I think we need them for purposes of safety.

You know, as somebody who is trying to explain to the public that we're gonna catch somebody who murdered two young people, I would call them children, certainly young adults, but if you're a parent, they're children to you, and put up nine others in the hospital with serious wounds.

And, you know, having four days out, you know, looking back on it, four days out.

It happened on a Saturday evening.

On Tuesday night, we still effectively had nothing to work with.

Those cameras really help break that case open.

Whether it's a case of that magnitude, and I hope another one never happens again, obviously, or where somebody, you know, you've got a missing person or a child that's missing, you know, that happens.

Those cameras are important, and they really do help us solve crimes.

Look, there are cameras, all kinds of cameras all over this, all over the place.

I know this is government, but for certain there are cameras everywhere.

What's really critical is that misuse be handled swiftly and with significant sanctions.

I don't think a police officer who abuses these cameras should be allowed to keep their job.

I think that level of sanction will build in the kind of accountability that will prevent misuse.

- If Helena Foulkes wins the race for governor, is there any chance that you will play a role in her administration?

- Well, we haven't talked about that, and, you know, my plan right now, Ian, is to take some time, and then and either keep taking time and retire.

I may practice a little bit, but I don't think I would practice in Rhode Island to be more on a national level.

I'll, listen and see what's out there for me, but, you know, I'm really... After 15 years of leading agencies that have had a fairly significant role in public safety, having to answer the phone, don't get me wrong, I've loved the jobs, but I will enjoy being able to leave the phone in the house while I'm outside raking leaves and know that'll be okay when I check back in three hours.

- You are known for your fondness for sailing in Narragansett Bay.

And you've often told me in interviews how you were pondering what was next as you are in your 60s.

What else is ahead for you?

- You know, I'm certainly gonna... I got a lot of books I want to read.

I love reading, always did as a child, and I always encourage young people to read.

It's the best way to both see worlds you may not have access to, which is what it was for me in a lot of ways, but it helped me in my education going forward.

A lot of books to read, a lot of sailing to do.

But beyond that, you know, I'm not sure.

My kids are in Dallas and Chicago respectively.

I have lots of friendships around the country from my US attorney days, people I wanna catch up with.

So I hope to do a little traveling but, you know, we'll see.

January and the weeks thereafter will be an interesting time for me, for sure.

- Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Neronha, it's always been a pleasure to talk.

You've always been very accessible, so we thank you for that, and thank you for sitting down with me.

- Thank you, Ian.

- Thanks for watching "One on One."

You can find all of our past interviews on the "Ocean State Media" YouTube channel.

You can also listen to "One on One" wherever you get your podcast.

And if you love Rhode Island politics, sign up to receive my free TGIF column in your inbox every Friday at oceanstatemedia.org/tgif.

We'll see you next week.

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