- You know, Helena doesn't know what she's talking about, just period.

The roles of him and Helena Foulkes have kind of been flipped.

She's kind of been running the incumbent strategy of taking it safe, and he's been running more like a challenger.

- The story at the end of the day with this election cycle could be changed, right?

I mean, we could see the governor, the lieutenant governor, and the mayor of Providence change.

Voters may be looking to reshuffle the stack.

If Morales wins, I think that's gonna be probably the biggest story out of Rhode Island next week.

(dramatic music) - And welcome into this episode of "Lively."

I'm Jim Hummel.

We're joined this week by Ocean State media reporter, Ian Donnis and Ed Fitzpatrick from the Boston Globe.

We are just days away from knowing which candidates will prevail on primary day and move on to the November ballot.

From the governor's race down, this week's panel has been right in the middle of the political coverage.

So kudos for me to begin with.

I've been reading your stuff.

You guys are doing a great job.

Ian, let's start with the race that everybody's talking about, the governor's race.

What do you see coming down the home stretch?

- Well, we can only wonder how things might be different had the Washington Bridge not had to close on an emergency basis back in 2023.

Certainly, Governor McKee did not help himself by downplaying the impact on travelers initially and talking about completing the reconstruction of the bridge this year.

As we know, things turned out very differently and he's never really found a way to dig out from under that.

I mean, was there possibly a better way to message on it?

Who knows?

But he did not find that, and that has been a very dark cloud over his campaign.

The roles of him and Helena Foulkes have kind of been flipped.

She's kind of been running the incumbent strategy of taking it safe, and he's been running more like a challenger, attacking and going after her at every opportunity.

But as we know, all the polls show her with a double-digit lead and it would be a big surprise if she does not win the primary.

- Yeah, I mean, we had that poll from UNH that showed Foulkes up like 35% or some astronomical lead, but I don't think that's accurate.

I think most of the polls have shown her up between 15 and 20%.

So that's probably more the state of play right now.

You know, but McKee's always had a base.

He's always had support in all his races, and I think they'll turn out.

He's depending on maybe some of the older voters.

But this time around, it's a head-to-head competition as opposed to 2022.

All those voters for Nelly Gaubert and others are finding a home.

And so, you know, Foulkes is going into this home stretch with a lead.

- It's a crystal ball question.

We've always talked about turnout and in a primary and it's not a presidential election year and can it be unenthusiastic.

I guess it really does come down to the reason it's difficult to beat an incumbent is because Governor McKee's out there every day, you know, ceremonial signing and all of that.

He's picked up, even though the AFL-CIO sat out, he's picked up a lot of, you know, smaller endorsements.

Where does that factor in?

Union endorsements.

- Yeah, I think it helps him a little bit.

He also took a stand recently in favor of this so-called rule of 90, a way to enhance the retirement benefits of public employees.

He's using every trick in the book as anyone in his position would.

- And if you want that, you have to keep me around in order to get it, right?

- Yeah, I mean, I covered a news conference with him this week talking about the improved Medicaid rates in Rhode Island.

So he's hitting every bell.

And on the other hand, Foulkes is taking it very cautiously.

She's trying strenuously to avoid making a mistake.

I had her in for an interview last week.

I said, "What is a bold initiative you will announce right now to show that you're interested in governing boldly rather than safely?"

She said housing, which is what she's been saying for months and which is clearly a key issue, but that's not a bold stand right now.

- Yeah, I mean, one dynamic that came up in the final weeks here was having this pack that supports clean energy come in with ads attacking McKee.

So we'll see how much of an impact that makes.

You know, she's taken a different stand on his proposal.

She's, you know, criticized him for trying to roll back some of the clean energy targets, but she hasn't said she wouldn't do it.

- So that came out of left field.

He's gone dark until he got a little bit of outside money to help him with that last ad, the kind of closing ad.

But talk about that.

So, you know, in the whole affordability thing, a lot of people have been complaining that the green energy is really at, when you look at your bill every month, that that's a problem.

I'm sure he never in a million years, because he's been pro wind energy and all of this and Rhode Island's gonna be the hub.

Did that come out of left field for him?

- Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, his real emphasis was the affordability agenda and that included trying to lower the energy prices.

But, you know, to do that, he was gonna have to peel back some of these clean energy programs and Foulkes criticized him for that saying, you know, that's gonna be the long-term solution for Rhode Island.

- And ultimately the legislature rejected that, right?

- Yeah, they watered that down.

- A lot of it in that get through.

- Yeah, one related note, Ed mentioned the outside money that's pouring in and it took an independent expenditure funded ad to mention the ILO Group controversy from years ago.

It's been somewhat surprising that Foulkes campaign has not mentioned that because that was a big issue and McKee says it's that dog doesn't hunt, but Attorney General Neronha is very critical of him on that.

Foulkes has run a very disciplined campaign focused on the bridge, focused on the theme of change.

And I think they didn't wanna make their message too complex and just kind of keep it streamlined.

- And finally, just before we move to the next thing, do you also think he's only had one full term, but I wonder if some people like it's this guy's been around a long time.

he was lieutenant governor for two terms and then he's been in the governor's race for six years.

So it's almost like, and I don't know if there's voter fatigue.

For better or for worse, the Washington Bridge has been a brick around his neck.

Are people just like, let's just get somebody new in there?

I'm not really sure who that's gonna be, but I don't care.

- Yeah.

I mean, the story at the end of the day with this election cycle could be changed, right?

I mean, we could see the governor, the lieutenant governor, and the mayor of Providence change.

We'll see if that actually happens.

But yeah, I mean, voters may be looking to reshuffle the stack.

- [Jim] Stay with the lieutenant governor's race.

- Yeah.

- It looks like Sabina Matos and Xay Khamsyvoravong, former city council member in Newport.

We don't know, the polling has been kind of sparse, but it looks like they're tight going into it.

But again, she's the incumbent.

- She's the incumbent and she's led in what, the most of the polls.

Yeah, Xay was up in that most recent, but that was the UNH poll, so I don't know how much credibility to put into that.

But yeah, I mean, it seems like it's come down to those two are in the lead.

You've got Providence Councilwoman Sue AnderBois in third, and she's got some progressive support, so maybe she could make a run.

But yeah, Xay's got a lot of he's led the way in fundraising, so he's can get his message out.

- It'll be interesting to see how the vote in Providence affects the Lieutenant Governor's race.

Voting will be up because the Providence mayoral race.

Maybe some voters there remember Sabina Matos fondly as a former city council president.

But as Ed said, Sue AnderBois is from the east side.

She'll get a lot of progressive support in Providence.

So that could temper that level of voting for Lieutenant Governor Matos in Providence.

We'll have to see.

- What about the Providence City Council race?

That I guess, again, under the governor, that's the next in line that I think people are looking at.

- The Province mayoral race now.

- [Jim] I'm sorry, yeah, Providence Mayoral Race.

- This is a very closely watched race, and it's amazing that Mayor Smiley has not had any major blunder.

He came into this race with the major advantages of incumbency and a much fatter campaign account than David Morales.

And Morales has deliberately chosen not to go on TV, but this is perceived as a close and competitive race.

Morales is a very precocious guy at 27.

He comes across as older.

He's very irrepressible and confident.

There are questions about whether he has the experience to manage a city like Providence, but he has enthusiastic support, and I think he's really tapping into that message and concern about affordability and housing in the current moment.

- Yeah, I mean, Morales focused on the rent control issue and criticized the mayor for vetoing that legislation.

And, you know, we're in the middle of a housing crisis.

But he is a young guy.

Smiley's been able to say he doesn't have the experience for this role.

But I think that's the story.

If he wins, if Morales wins and you know, is kind of the Mamdani of Rhode Island here, I think that's gonna be probably the biggest story out of Rhode Island next week.

- Interestingly, we see growing support across the country for Democratic socialist candidates like Morales, but in the cases where they win, they're just replacing other Democrats.

They're not expanding the map by unseating Republicans.

So you have to wonder whether it's really an effective long-term strategy.

- Well, and we'll find that out in Michigan because I think in that Senate race, you know, is that somebody who can really.

Because after the primary, if you're right, you gotta go left.

And if you're left, you gotta go right and get to the middle a little bit.

In terms of Morales, we've talked about this the last couple of weeks.

"Oh, I'm not gonna go on TV like it's a dirty media."

If he had a million dollars, don't you think he'd be on TV?

Isn't that some of it that he has to have two nickels to rub together at the end of the day?

- I think it's a little bit beside the point.

I mean, I think a province mayoral race is different from a statewide race.

And I think just like parties are less influential in the past, I think people's attention is divided.

The media spectrum is far more divided than it once was.

A lot of people, particularly young people, are getting their information from TikTok and YouTube.

And I think Morales is showing that you don't necessarily need to be on TV to get your message across.

But if Smiley wins, his emphasis on public safety through television commercials will have probably have been a decisive factor.

- A little bit of me dies every time you say people are getting their news from TikTok, but that's- - Jim, you and me.

- That's just.

- You and me both.

- I'm sorry, but hey, it's old guys trying to catch up with the new times.

AG's race.

- Yeah.

- What do you see?

- Again, four candidates trying to all break through.

- Yeah, another race that's hard to call.

You've seen Kim Ahern and Hoffman out front in most of the polls.

And a lot of money spent, a lot of mailers coming to the house.

They've been going at each other, real critical.

So yeah, that, that's gonna be a fascinating outcome to replace Peter Neronha, who's been a kind of a high profile attorney general for the past eight years.

- Yeah, Neronha's been stepping up his support for Hoffman.

He was in a new campaign commercial with him.

He's campaigning with him.

Hoffman and Ahern, the gloves are off between them.

They're throwing more punches at one another.

Solomon has a slightly more conservative lane.

Jason Knight, I think, did very well in debates, but he seems like he is not in the top tier of candidates right now.

And this is a very important race, important office clearly for the state.

- Yeah, and not a lot of separation.

I mean, a lot of it is fighting what Trump is doing.

A lot of it, abortion rights, gun control, all of that.

And I know Joe Solomon's a little bit to the right, but when you look at the candidates, it's really hard to distinguish.

Like you had said, what's the one dramatic thing would Helena Foulkes do?

I think if you looked at the AG candidates, I'm not sure what the one thing that would establish one from the other.

- Yeah, it's come down to her in defending her tenure as the head of the Cannabis Control Commission.

And, you know, and Hoffman's had to respond to criticism from some of the other candidates about what the Attorney General's office focused on in the past eight years.

So yeah, you're right though, that three of the candidates are more progressive, Solomon more conservative, so we'll see.

- Yeah, I think you're right.

On policy-wise, there is not a radical amount of difference.

I thought the Channel 12 debate, Tim White, Ted Nesi did an excellent job in illuminating some differences in the background of the candidates and kind of what has shaped them.

But on the whole not a lot of policy difference.

- And It's like herding cats with four people.

It's real.

I've done those debates.

I did one for the city of Providence when David Cicilline was running, and it's really tough to get everybody to get in.

You've been watching General Assembly races, and a lot of these races, even on the statewide level, a lot of people think the primary is really gonna decide, because either there's not an opponent or they're gonna be strong going into the election.

What are you keeping your eye on in the general assembly?

- Yeah, I mean, 2/3 of the general assembly seats are not being contested this year, so that's not good for democracy, but you're right.

In Rhode Island, a lot of the races are decided in Democratic primaries.

And one new dynamic this year is the League of Rhode Island businesses is trying to elect more conservative Democrats and their Independents and Republicans, but more conservative Democrats in the primaries.

So we're seeing some probably some close contests.

We'll see what their batting average is at the end of the day.

But you see in the Senate in particular, a lot of jockeying for power in that chamber because we had the leadership battle last year where it showed some divisions there, and you've got the League of Rhode Island Businesses, for example challenging Senator Alana DiMario.

- Mark Mesrobian is the challenger.

- Yeah, and that is the cousin of the Senate majority whipped David Tikoian a businessman down there.

So that's one to keep an eye on.

So yeah, the League of Rhode Island Businesses, and then in the House, taking a role in the Senate, and they've got a few House races too.

And in the House, you've got nine House members left this year.

So it's a scramble to Phil Dosi and there's some interesting races there.

- Yeah, there's a generational fight on the east side of Providence between Edith Ajello one of the most longest serving reps being challenged by a younger progressive, Michael Garmon.

As Ed said, the League of Rhode Island Businesses is making challenges.

I'm a little skeptical about how much ground they might make up.

Incumbents like Meghan Kallman, a senator from Pawtucket, Alana DiMario, Senator from Narragansett, they are well liked in their districts.

They're seen as effective lawmakers who represent their constituents, but we'll have to wait and see how it comes down.

- We had Dave LeVake on "Lively" a couple of months ago, and I think what's interesting about them is the fundraising.

You know, they use the certainly legal, they set up these individual political action committees.

So we'll find out, does money talk eventually?

- Absolutely.

And you have to give the league some credit for being very creative in its approach.

I mean, they say they have won the blessing of the League of Elections, that there's nothing illegal about what they're doing, and they're coming up with some serious money, and there is a lot of impact in what comes out of the general assembly and the legislation.

So you do need to credit the League of Rhode Island businesses for being pragmatic in coming up with money for legislative races.

- Yeah, to put $10,000 into a Senate- - It's a lot of money.

- A lot of money can go pretty far.

But, you know, they're backing candidates like Brian Coogan is challenging Senate President Valerie Lawson in East Providence.

I don't know, you know, if that kind of candidate is gonna pan out at the end of the day.

- We will know in less than a week, we'll be talking about it next week.

A new report shows that Rhode Island ranks number one in the country for something that a lot of municipal officials trying to craft budgets every year know all too well.

The state leads the country in cost per capita for fire protection, nearly twice the national average.

This is a report by the Rhode Island Public Expenditure Council, business backed, probably not a surprise, but always an eye-opener.

And police too.

- Not a surprise.

People like Ken Block have been talking about this kind of thing for many years.

And as a report, a longtime reporter, I just remember days of listening to the scanner, firefighters go out and it's a burnt toast.

There are a lot fewer house fires than there used to be, and it does call for a... There are other valuable functions that firefighters, police play in responding to things that fall short of dire emergencies.

But if we are spending so much more on a per capita and per income basis, it does deserve more scrutiny.

- Yeah, I mean, one thing that the report showed is that we're also the lowest in fire losses.

And so, you know, I think the firefighters could argue it's paying off.

You're getting what you paid for.

But the report also showed that I think it was 70% of fire department calls were for emergency responses as opposed to responding to fires because it's less burnt toast because Ian does a good job with that.

But yeah, so it.

It's an interesting policy debate for the municipalities.

- Maybe that could be a new podcast, burnt toast.

- What do you think?

Just thinking outside the box.

There you go.

You make a good point because they've talked about.

Look, we're such a heavily unionized state, and the stereotype always used to be the firefighters were the good guys.

They came and rescued you with the cat.

They pulled you out of the burning house.

And I remember it changed a little bit in terms of public sentiment when they boycotted Vice President Joe Biden coming in for a David Cicilline fundraiser and played real hardball there and showed the strength of the union.

The problem is they've said, "Why don't we privatize the rescue service?"

If that's 70 or 80%, that's a non-starter for the unions, right?

- Absolutely.

And one other takeaway from this report was wide disparities among different communities.

Newport was highest per capita for both police and fire costs, but there were six communities that were significantly less than most of the others.

So if some communities find a better way of being more efficient, spending less money, that's certainly in taxpayers' interest.

- So this is file it under the category of an interesting report, probably not gonna move the needle on anything.

You had a great piece this week with Peter Neronha.

You got to go.

What an assignment.

Somebody had to do it.

Ed Fitzpatrick goes sailing with the attorney general on Narragansett Bay.

- Yeah, I was reminded of how beautiful the state is getting out.

I grew up in Greenville, I was sailing.

- You were landlocked.

- Yeah.

- He sails out of Jamestown.

So you got a beautiful view of the Newport Bridge.

- Beautiful, beautiful view and the wind died when abouút halfway through.

So it turned out to be a four-hour cruise, along in the Gilligans.

So yeah, no, I mean, I got to ask him every question I could possibly think of and you know, so it was an interesting interview.

He talked about his accomplishments.

The first one he cited was getting an escrow account to help our lady of Fatima and the Roger Williams Medical Center when they were in crisis.

And he talked about his regrets too, that having a Twitter fight with Judge Pracasini and that he wishes he had chosen his words differently there.

- Big shoes to fill, obviously, whoever.

I mean, Peter Neronha has been a force.

- Yeah.

I laugh because I remember when he was US Attorney and one of the first news conferences he gave as US Attorney, he was extremely taciturn, barely made any non-regular comment.

And of course, we know him as a guy who pops off on X, formerly Twitter at every opportunity, has been involved in a lot of serious policy issues.

I think he certainly does deserve credit for helping to save Roger Williams and Fatima Hospital.

That's one story I covered a lot.

And had he not gotten the escrow fund established by the former owners, those hospitals might no longer be with us.

- And also, the you know, we've been talking a lot about energy costs and there's gonna be offsets now on your bill.

They've been talking about that, that he really pressed when Rhode Island Energy bought National Grid.

And that's coming back to the consumers now.

A lot of people don't realize that was his work that led to that.

- Yeah, he's been very ambitious in, that office, you know, not just focusing.

And he's been criticized for this maybe, not just focusing on the criminal prosecutions, but also taking a role in healthcare, doing things he thought other parts of government should be doing.

And you've seen him criticizing the McKee administration for some of that.

- It used to be the AG's office was a minefield for upwardly mobile politicians because every AG before Neronha had some huge problem or scandal, 38 Studios, the Jennifer Rivera case for Sheldon Whitehouse, etc.

And that really changed with Neronha.

Maybe it's because we're in the age of Trump and the president causes so much attention on a shifting array of subjects.

But Neronha has been an interesting guy to cover.

- Go ahead.

- Oh, and on the Trump administration, he's filed dozens of.

And joined in dozens and dozens of- - And been successful on a lot of them.

- And you know, some say, "Oh, you're being political."

He said, "Well, his response was, I'm not doing it because I just don't like him or he's in another party."

He said, "We've saved the state a billion dollars."

- Yeah.

I just think it's gonna be interesting to see the style coming in.

I remember him as US Attorney, but that's a different role.

You have to be more buttoned up- - Of course.

- In the federal government.

Just a final story I wanted to talk about.

North Kingstown Representative Julie Casimiro, after a long kind of public airing of her moving from her district in North.

She's one of the nine who's left the house moving from North Kingstown to South Carolina has finally resigned.

This has happened before, but I think what sunk her was numerous pictures of her house for sale for North Kingstown, the newest state in South Carolina, its social media really doomed her.

- Yeah, and she shot herself in the foot by putting this out there on social media.

You could argue that this story has been overplayed a little bit.

This is not exactly Watergate.

Yes, people are concerned that she's still drawing her Rhode Island lawmaker's salary while living in- - For four more months.

- Right, so it's a total of maybe like $2,500, not exactly a king's ransom, but yeah, I mean, she did shoot herself in the foot, but we also live in the age of remote work where she might be working just as hard responding to constituents' concerns from the, I think it's the Palmetto state, right?

Than if she was having coffee milk and co-hogs up here in Rhode Island.

- But in Rhode Island, you know, they always say we never leave Rhode Island.

So I think that has wrinkled some people.

But yeah, I mean, the last day of the legislative session, she said I'm moving.

She, you know, was open about it.

I'm moving to South Carolina.

But I don't think people heard that as right now, you know, it was eventually.

So yeah, putting on social media didn't help.

And then she also, when asked about it by my colleague, Dan McGowan, It kind of threw Representative Pat Serpa under the bus saying, "Oh, she moved out of her district too, and you got a legal opinion about it," but she had just moved a few miles within Rhode Island, so.

- We were talking in the green room about this.

I've done two stories on this when I was at ABC six.

One was Representative Paul Moura, who we all know, got elected in Providence, and then he decided to move to Rumford.

Really didn't publicize it.

We found out about it.

And the ruling, as I heard, the people I talked to at the time was, you have to be a qualified elector and that gets you elected, but it's really kind of vague in the Constitution, Peter Moura's letter notwithstanding about if you can move.

Now, if he was gonna run for reelection again, clearly it'd have to be in his district, but we've done these stories before.

I just think in this social media age, everybody's in everybody's business.

- Oh yeah, everybody's following your Facebook posts and whatever.

- And getting their news from TikTok.

- And getting the news from TikTok, right.

- Yeah, her seat's open, that's gonna be a competitive race down there too, so.

- Yeah, and there are a number of open legislative seats.

- Great.

Let's go to outrages and/or kudos.

Mr.

Fitzpatrick, let's begin with you this week.

- Well, I always try to give you a First Amendment outrage, and the latest for me has been seeing the Pentagon firing a top editor and a top reporter from Stars and Stripes.

And Stars and Stripes had just reported about the aircraft carrier over in the Middle East that had some horrendous conditions.

And you know, it's just the latest example, I think, of the Trump administration going after the media.

And it's a first.

Everybody across the political spectrum should be concerned about that.

- I watched his interview on 60 Minutes and I thought the clock is ticking.

Because he was said, you know, whoever was interviewing said, "Are you concerned about getting canned?"

And he's like, "Of course I am, but there's A line that I can't cross."

The one thing we didn't talk about, Ian, and we just have a couple minutes Helena Foulkes, you asked a great question about the access to public records, talking about the First Amendment stuff.

Well, tell me what her answer was.

- Yeah, I asked her would she support modernizing the state's open records law if it's proposed as it has been the last two years?

She unequivocally said yes, she will.

And that would be a very different stance from Governor McKee, whose office and whose other executive branch departments have fiercely opposed changing that.

- Fought it tooth and nail.

And actually, I remember the first time Senator Lou de Palma was really kind of championing the first bill with the 48 changes, and I know the New England First Amendment Coalition's been involved in some of this, is that McKee rallied all of his cabinet members to write letters and say, "This is why it shouldn't happen.

It was outrageous."

- Yeah, it wasn't just like a letter from the governor's office.

It was every department weighing in about why this is a terrible idea.

And there are 48 different proposals in that omnibus bill that Senator Palma's been pushing for four years now.

But, you know, it may be a new day because if there's a new governor and we have a new house speaker now so it has a different audience in the years ahead.

- If a Little Foulkes gets in, that's the first question for her.

Where's the legislation?

- Right.

Go ahead.

- And this is not just of concern to reporters.

This is the public's information.

- Sure.

Okay.

Outrage kudo.

- It's back to school time.

We are getting a lot of back to school stories, and some have highlighted the growing role of AI in the classroom.

This is described as a way to prepare the kitties for the future.

But it caught my attention this week that OpenAI, one of the big AI companies, had a situation where its automated scripts violated a number of regulations, hacked into another company.

The company was not exhibiting the kind of safety protocols it's supposed to.

And if this is happening now when we're just a few years into the AI boom, you really have to wonder where we are headed and if this is opening the Pandora's box without having appropriate regulation and safety protocols in place.

- Yeah, my daughter and a lot of times, we'll text back and forth and I'll say, "Do you think this email is AI or not?"

There's certain little buzzwords you can hear.

I am so glad I'm not 100% of a kid just entering school now.

It is it's a tough world out there.

Ian and Ed, we look forward to your coverage and going forward after primary day into the elections.

Thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel and wherever you get your favorite podcast.

We'll see you next time right here on "Lively."

(dramatic music) - [Narrator] "Lively" is generously supported in part by John Hazen White's "Lookout."