- In the last five years, Rhode Island has had the steepest decline in our economic well-being for kids than any other state in the country.

- If everyone's a victim, we're never gonna get out of this cycle of just spend, spend, spend.

- I would say that kids aren't victims.

These aren't just causes or pet projects.

They're parts of our infrastructure of our state that need to be supported.

It's exciting to have the World Cup here, to have Rhode Island to showcase and Providence to showcase for the world.

That's super exciting, but we gotta make sure people are safe as well.

- We see the problems that we have now without the extended hours.

So I just find it, you know, it's kind of like a cash grab.

(bright lively music) - And welcome into this episode of "Lively."

We appreciate you joining us.

This week, we are joined by Rhode Island KIDS COUNT Executive Director Paige Parks, and making his "Lively" debut, Rhode Island filmmaker Dante Bellini.

Get ready for a lot of soccer talk and fans around here beginning this weekend as the World Cup officially gets underway.

With Foxborough chosen as one of 16 host stadiums across North America, Boston and Providence are hoping to cash in on fans arriving over the next six weeks.

Dante, welcome.

Let's begin with you.

- Thank you.

- We are taping on a Thursday morning.

On Wednesday night, the City of Providence said, "We will allow certain bars to open "until 3:00 in the morning."

How do you feel about later openings?

- I'm outraged by the whole thing.

- We'll get to outrages later, but- - Yeah, so I misspoke.

I will save that one for later as well.

It's just unbelievable to me.

You know, I can't fathom why first the General Assembly would talk about it and, you know, say it's okay, and then local ordinances would allow it as well.

We spend so much money, there are so many organizations that are devoted to preventing drinking, preventing drinking and driving.

We spend tons of money on advocacy, and now we're saying, "Okay, let's keep the bars open a little bit longer, "so people can get even more riled up."

It's only gonna take one incident, one incident to, you know, for all the people to come out of the woodwork and say, "I told you so."

Well, it's gonna be too late at that point.

I think it's absolutely ludicrous.

- Paige?

- Yeah, so absolutely, public safety is of big concern.

I mean, it's exciting to have the World Cup here, exciting to bring in, like, to have Rhode Island to the showcase and Providence to showcase for the world.

That's super exciting, but we gotta make sure people are safe as well, and I think it's interesting that if it's about bringing in more revenue, then there seemed to be a willingness to change rules to bring in more money, but when we need rules to change to keep people safe, to prioritize kids and children, that is not necessarily always the case.

- It's just disingenuous.

It's just literally disingenuous for them to, A, advocate for it, and B, do it.

So I'm just very disappointed in people, because they know how much work we do on the other side to prevent these senseless tragedies.

- You've been working with law enforcement for years.

I know this is, and MADD also, and you've been in touch with leaders at the State Police and Providence City Police.

I wonder, and you don't speak for them, but I wonder how law enforcement feels about this, because I think one of the reasons the city limited it a little bit, they said, "We'll give you four days over the 39," is that they just may not have the manpower to do it, right?

- It doesn't matter.

We see the problems that we have now without the extended hours.

Look at Federal Hill at the moment.

So I just find it, you know, it's kind of like a cash grab, and I just don't understand it, and it's all under the guise that we're trying to help the economic development of, you know, these restaurants and bars, where these games will be more popular.

I just think it's foolish.

- Let's talk about the larger issue of the World Cup coming in.

The state has invested through various entities taxpayer money, $750,000, and it's probably, I think when you look at maybe what the return is gonna be through sales tax, and hotel, and all that, they'll probably make money on it, but I wonder what you think about the vibe coming in.

I think it just depends on what age group and demographic you're in.

I mean, I really don't watch soccer that much, but I see a lot of people going nuts around the country and the world for this.

- Yeah, there's definitely a lot of excitement for the World Cup, and I know as a parent too, I'm really excited to show my kids, and to say, like, "Look at all the people coming from across the world, "all united on one exciting sport "that we can enjoy together."

So I think on the principle of it, it's very exciting and- - Are your kids into soccer at all?

- My son plays soccer, and I tell you, I know enough about to follow town league soccer.

I don't know a lot about World Cup soccer- - That's his World Cup, right?

- That's his world, yeah, but I'm, even someone who doesn't follow soccer, like me, I'm still super excited about this, and we've seen some of the teams just, you know, walking through downtown from other countries.

I ran into the Bermuda team the other day.

- Did you really?

- And I'm like, yeah, I did.

I'm like, "This is so exciting.

"What a really cool opportunity."

So even someone who doesn't follow soccer like me, I'm still excited.

- What about the larger issues?

- Is the hype real, right?

So yeah, I think a lot of people are interested in watching soccer, but is the hype real, and was the money worth it?

You know, at the same time, we have the 250th birthday of our nation, which is getting much less attention, absent all the efforts by Gregg Amore.

I would've rather seen all of this effort or much of this effort be redirected.

In talking to some of my friends in the hospitality industry, hotels and restaurants, they're not seeing the activity that they thought they were gonna see, and they jacked up prices, and the inventory levels are not what they said, you know, what they predicted, or projected, rather.

So, you know, now they have to kind of retool what they're doing.

- Bob Burke, who a lot of us know, he owns Pot au Feu for the last 40 years, and he's also involved in the 250, he wrote an interesting column for the "Journal" that said there was so much hype, and you look, they charge $80 for the T to be able to get to the stadium, and there's $500 tickets, that his concern is that they may have scared people away, that, you know, are you gonna come to Providence and spend a lot of money on a hotel?

Well, he did an analysis on the hotels that showed the prices have steadily dropped- - Yeah.

- Over the last couple of weeks.

- But what are we talking about in terms of accessibility?

Making this, soccer is an accessible sport.

You can go anywhere in this state, you know, on a weekend and see kids play.

I see my nephews and nieces play, but what FIFA has essentially said, and what we have said by extension, is that it's for the wealthy, it's for the elite.

I mean, who can afford to do this?

Who can afford to bring their family to Gillette?

It's not possible.

So I have just a very bad taste in my mouth- - [Jim] Excuse me, that's Boston Stadium- - Boston Stadium- - We're not calling it Gillette.

We're not talking about Foxborough.

What about the- - Where's Foxborough?

No, I'm just kidding.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, well, agreed.

We wanna make sure that sports are accessible, and there is definitely a lot of hype around how to make money off of something that should just be about sportsmanship, and camaraderie, and celebrating a game.

Being able to go to watch parties, I think, will be fun.

- Right.

- You know, those are free.

So we'll see how many people take advantage of that.

- Yes.

- And also, making sure that it's not, that people can actually get there, right?

So we're always concerned about, like, parking, and where people are going to stay, and- - I have lots of friends who- - So those are logistical- - Are invested in it, whether they're, you know, part of the soccer community, or they are people who were involved in making the decision.

But I don't run across a lot of just average people who are talking about this who are gonna do any of that stuff.

So my fingers are crossed that it does, that it does well, because it's in all our best interest.

But I think the hype is way over-hyped.

- Okay, we will see in the next couple of weeks.

Next year's proposed $15.2 billion Rhode Island state budget sailed through the Senate this week, and now heads to the governor's desk for signing.

Republicans and a few Democrats were unsuccessful trying to trim what they say is an unsustainable spending plan.

Paige, let's begin with you.

You've been concentrating and focusing on the budget.

Overall, you got some of what you wanted, right?

- Oh, yeah, we're extremely excited about this budget.

There's a lot of great investments in kids and in families.

We've been working with the Right from the Start campaign and the Raising Rhode Island Coalition as well as many other partners to make sure kids and families are in the forefront for this budget, and we're really pleased with many of the investments that the General Assembly has put into the budget and also that the governor has proposed that has remained in.

So the child tax credit, we're extremely excited about that.

It is a step to addressing child poverty in our state.

So we're really grateful for the governor for proposing it and for the General Assembly even increasing that a little bit.

So we're really pleased about that.

A lot of investments in early childcare access and affordability, so we're super pleased with that, as well as some much needed reforms for our cash assistance programs, the Rhode Island Works program, some really simple things, like child support, making sure that poor children get more of their child support payments has been included in the budget.

We've been working on that for a couple of years, so, so excited to finally see that come through, as well as investments in our Medicaid reimbursement rates, which we know is truly critically important, funding for uncompensated care, as well as making sure that some of our programs that we have don't fall away.

So the MomsPRN and the PediPRN program, as well as more investments in family home visiting, so that we're able to draw down more federal dollars- - Were you in the room with the budget writers?

It sounds like you got these, get these all ticked- - We were there so much, all the time.

Really, again, like Rhode Island KIDS COUNT, this is what we do.

We make sure that kids are at the forefront.

So we've been talking about these investments for a very long time consistently, and so pleased to see it actualized in the budget.

- Dante?

- This is where Paige is not gonna like me so much.

(Jim chuckling) (Paige chuckling) And while I admire and respect the work that's done there, it is, you know, sometimes we're the architects of our own demise, and it is an unsustainable level of spending by every measure, and there are so many good programs.

There are, but everyone that goes up there, whether, you know, lobbyists, or the people that they're advocating for, everyone's a victim.

So everyone is a victim when they're asking for, you know, money, everyone, and their cause is the best cause.

But what we don't do, we don't have the courage and the fortitude to, intestinal fortitude, to figure out where we're gonna cut, where we're gonna cut.

We have a $15.2 billion budget, which is, you know, look where it was five, 10 years ago.

And I'm not saying that any of these programs are bad.

What I'm saying is that I'm not sure that we're always measuring the outcomes, and if everyone's a victim, we're never gonna get out of this cycle of just spend, spend, spend, and there are a lot of good people up on Smith Hill, but I don't know that we're, I don't know that, you know, we can put that horse back in the barn.

It's just crazy to me.

- Well, I would say that kids aren't victims and nor are they a cause- - I'm talking about the causes themselves, you know, whether it is, whether it is CVS up there, or whether it's your organization.

- Yeah, well, kids and families are not just something that we can, like, "Oh, let's try to put some money into that."

Like, if we do not invest in our kids and our family, they are our future.

So if we are not investing to make sure that they have what they need and also that our state is equipped to be able to handle the impacts and the changes at the federal level, like, we cannot let kids go hungry.

We have to make sure they are educated.

We have to make sure they have access to medical care.

We also need to make sure that they have access to high quality, affordable childcare, so that their parents can work.

These aren't just causes or pet projects.

They're parts of our infrastructure of our state that need to be supported, and if we don't, that's actually where we're going to see worse outcomes.

We do look at the outcomes.

The Rhode Island KIDS COUNT Factbook reports with outcomes- - [Dante] Which you didn't bring.

- I did not bring it today.

- You usually have your prop- - I was stuck traffic.

I didn't, but you can see it online for free, rikidscount.org.

- I'm not, I'm not- - But it's 67 indicators of child well-being- - What I'm saying- - And you can see over time when we do not invest, when we pull back investments, like we have pulled back $46 million in childcare since 2005, we have not invested in our state's cash assistance program in 14 years.

When you see those investments go down, we see child poverty increase, we see people not being able to work or get employment, we see huge, catastrophic, negative outcomes.

According to, so our national partners at Annie E. Casey Foundation just released this week the KIDS COUNT Data Book and it compares us to other states.

In the last five years, Rhode Island has had the steepest decrease, steepest decline in our economic well-being for kids than any other state in the country.

We are falling off the worst in the entire country, and that's because we are pulling back investments.

So in this budget, we are putting, trying to put some of the little bit of that money back in, 'cause if we don't, it is terrible for our whole state.

- Well, Paige, none of the stuff that you just said is stuff that anybody can argue with, and you're very adept at that argument.

What I'm saying is that we are now spending more money than, per capita, than most states, and yet, the outcomes aren't good enough, and we need to put more money into it.

When do we say, "It's enough"?

When do we say, "Well, what about "just the average working family that is really struggling?"

We need to be fair and equitable for everyone, but yet, even though we're throwing money at everything, the outcomes still are not where you want them.

You just said they're not where you want them.

So there has to be, I think, an honest conversation about this where feelings don't get hurt and we just really analyze is 15.2 what the number should be here?

- Well, we talked about this a little bit last week in that the governor put out, first, they were talking a year ago, "We're gonna have a $250 million structural deficit."

Revenues got better.

They tweaked a little bit.

The governor's budget was balanced when he presented it in January.

The General Assembly took that and added another 300 million for a 6% increase overall, and I agree with Dante.

None of what you said I could argue with, but when you look at- - Nor should you.

- The macro, when you look at next year in your own budget, your own household budget, your salary, you would never go up that much, and instead of just putting into the budget, how about putting a little aside for the rainy days ahead?

Now, I understand the federal cuts are on the horizon, and that's why they passed the millionaires tax, graduated.

I assume you agreed with that, right?

- Right, and it's not just on the horizon.

It's here now.

So June 1st is when some of the H.R.

1 requirements came in with SNAP.

In one day, 5,500 Rhode Islanders lost their SNAP benefits.

So it's not on the horizon.

It is here right now, and it's gonna get worse- - And we saw what happened last fall.

- Over time.

- Inspector General, do you agree with that, that they put it in the budget?

- I did, but it should've been for the General Assembly and the judiciary as well, period.

I mean, there should be no argument with that.

- Right, so the inspector, so the Speaker, Chris Blazejewski, who actually had advocated for this, but Joe Shekarchi, his predecessor, was standing in the way, says, "Let's do an inspector general, "but because of separation of powers, "we can't look at the judiciary or the legislature."

I understand that argument- - When have we ever broken rules before?

- Yeah.

- Come on.

Yeah.

- Yeah, so you think there's a way to do it, to be able to get- - Absolutely, absolutely.

- Inspector General, do you agree with that?

- Well, I think that right now with states being under more scrutiny with how money is being spent, I think it absolutely makes sense to have it now, and as Speaker Blazejewski said in his remarks, like, especially with what's happening at the federal level, we need something, and another entity, to make sure that all the money is being spent correctly, most efficiently, most effectively.

So I think that makes sense.

Should it apply to the other branches?

I think that we need to track all of our taxpayer dollars to make sure it is- - See, we agree.

- The most effective.

- We agree.

- Oh, there you go.

We have common ground.

- That's right.

- Anything else you liked or didn't like about the budget?

- Well, I like the investment in education.

Education, I think, is, you know, a non-starter.

So that's one of my kudos later.

But I don't like the number.

The number, I mean, everyone uses the New Hampshire number, you know, as the, or the Delaware number, and really, I mean, if respectively they're doing six and 8 million, a billion for New Hampshire and Delaware, why are we almost double?

- Because we're providing, this is a state that's always been known as providing a lot of services.

- Right.

- And so, I understand you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

That's been 20 years- - Right.

- And we have people coming to Rhode Island for a variety of reasons and benefits.

So what you're saying is if we cut, those are real faces, real people, real children that we are cutting.

The history of Rhode Island has been, "Come here "because this is a good place "if you need help from the government."

- Hummel, you know me, I'm involved in a lot of nonprofit causes, and I care deeply about these things that you're talking about.

I just think that we have to have an honest conversation about the unsustainability of this budget growth.

- Final thoughts on that?

- Well, I think that we need to look at our revenue.

We need to make sure that we're able to support the programs that we have, and to me, it's not about cutting programs, and it's not just programs that people become dependent on.

These are, like, development programs to help people to be able to sustain themselves in the future, and that's what we should be absolutely investing in, like education, workforce development programs, things that get people to work.

- One thing I've been meaning to get to the last couple of weeks, the Rhode Island Public Expenditures Council puts out a lot of reports.

They're a business watchdog group.

They put out a report on housing, and this was Speaker Shekarchi's big baby the last five years, putting in $250 million that we put in bonds.

Basically, RIPEC has said we're not really getting a lot of bang for the buck, that for all the money we spent, 23,000 new affordable housing units are projected by 2030.

We're nowhere near that.

- Yeah.

- So I think a lot of taxpayers wonder where is this money going?

- Yeah, well, RIPEC and Mike, Mike DiBiase, didn't mince any words there, and that's what I'm talking about, accountability and outcomes.

We're putting all this money in.

What is our yield from that?

And so, a lot of the people that need affordable housing are waiting.

They, I mean, it's just because we're not working fast enough, we're not spending fast enough?

I mean, what is the real issue here?

And I think that RIPEC has hit it on the head, you know, that, you know, we have a lot of spokespeople in this state for every department, and now, for the Department of Housing, but we don't, we can't seem to get the actual work done more efficiently, and, you know, faster to help people.

So it's one of those things where accountability, I think, is important.

- Well, I highly respect RIPEC, but there are some things that are missing from this report that need to be considered.

So building affordable housing is more expensive, and there are pieces of it that I think attributes to why we're seeing higher costs for constructing affordable housing.

One of those is that there's wraparound services that come with some of these projects.

So some of the dollars that are spent, it's not just all state dollars, or state bond dollars- - It's social services, mental health, substance abuse- - Right, and that's required- - Counseling.

- By some of the federal dollars that we receive.

So if you're taking someone who is unhoused and you're putting them in housing, just putting them in a house is not enough.

You have to provide those wraparound services, like you mentioned, the mental health counseling, job supports, so that they are able to maintain home, and be able to sustain themselves.

So that's required by the federal government.

So that is going to add some cost for some of these units.

Also, pretty houses cost money, right?

It absolutely is cheaper to build a big, gigantic ugly house with a hundred units in it.

That is much cheaper.

But what the report doesn't mention is that many communities don't want housing like that, or they have ordinances that require a certain aesthetic for the housing.

That's more expensive, and we have communities that are already pushing back on having affordable housing.

Now, imagine telling them, "Sorry, "it's gotta be big and ugly and unsightly "and not meet your ordinances, "so that we can save some money."

- Is that in the ordinance- - That's not- - Yeah, big, ugly!

- Big and ugly?

- [Jim] I think that was one of the bills- - That's actually a direct quote, "Big and ugly."

- Really?

- No, but no, but some communities, they say they have to have certain materials, aesthetically pleasing, so forth, to meet the look of that town and that community.

And so, we should respect local communities where they have decided that's what they want.

That's gonna cost more money.

So that was missing out of the report.

And also, we're building housing that are meeting certain requirements, so they know that they last and they are sustainable in the future.

So there are certain requirements, like energy efficiency- - Environmental.

- Right, it costs more money to do that, but in the long run, that is what we need.

My dad used to say, "If you're gonna do something, do it right," and sometimes doing it right might cost a little bit more money.

- The numbers, though, that we've only gotten 642 units.

We're supposed to be getting 23,000 by 2030, and the spokesman from the Department of Housing says we're still on track.

- We're on track.

- We're four years away.

- Yeah, it's incredibly, it's a ludicrous statement.

There's no way that can happen.

There's no way that- - Well, there's more permits that have been approved, so we'll see what happens- - We'll see where we are- - Now that we have these- - We'll see where we are a year from now, and that's what Speaker Shekarchi said.

"Look, we put all this money into it.

"Let's see on the back end."

But Rhode Island is not an easy place to do business.

Look, we have prevailing wage, there are union involved, union considerations involved, and it's not the most, I don't think a developer, if you put five states up, would say, "Oh, Rhode Island's the first place I wanna go "and build affordable housing."

- I think everyone has good intentions.

I just, I'm gonna go back to my refrain.

I think it's about accountability and outcomes, and I'm not sure.

I think Mike is more on track than he's off track.

- I think that the sad part is there's a generational divide here, and I've said I've been in my house almost 28 years and my wife and I say we'd never be able to afford our own house.

If you're over like 40 or 45 and you got in the market before it went crazy five years ago- - Right.

- You're in the there, but I really feel for, I know some people who rent in Providence.

Of course, the lack of housing- - It's crazy.

- Has just boosted the rent.

So if you're our age and you own, or you're in a decent financial position, but it's really tough for kids coming outta school these days.

- It's very difficult.

Like you said, the cost of housing, the rent is astronomical.

Now that Providence has not voted to stabilize rents, Providence is one of the highest rentals in the country.

- Yeah, who would've thought?

- Yeah, so where are people going?

How are they affording to stay here in Rhode Island?

- [Jim] Last thought?

- It's a very thorny subject, you know, and I think that, I think Paige makes an excellent argument, but I do think that it reverts back to the fact that there are real numbers that we have to work with and they have to get done by a certain time, and we just don't, you know, we keep pushing that ball down the, you know, down the driveway, and it doesn't get done.

So it's, I don't, you know, I don't know, Hummel.

It's like it's there, the money has been spent, and we're not spending it fast enough.

- All right, let's go to outrages and/or kudos.

Paige, let's begin with you this week.

- I'm gonna start with kudos.

- Okay.

- It's graduation season.

I'm a sucker for a good high school graduation, so I'm so excited.

I just wanna give kudos- - [Jim] Do you stalk, do you go around the state and say- - Oh my gosh- - "Oh, I'm gonna show up "in Smithfield, I'm gonna show up in North"- - And why do I cry at all of 'em?

I don't even know the students- - You don't even know them- - No, it's like so- - I can (mumbles) that too.

- It's just so great- - When you hear "Pomp and Circumstance," that immediately- - It's instant.

- Triggers you, right?

- Right, you're like, "Oh, life is changing for these kids.

"Let's go see what they're gonna do" - They won't have a place to live when they get- - I know.

- Outta college.

- We're working on that.

But, yeah, so kudos to all the graduates and to their families, and hope everyone celebrates safely, but congratulations on making it there.

- Dante, let me give you the official welcome.

This is your first time- - Thank you.

- On "Lively," although we've known each other for many years.

You were in advertising for years, and now, you're a filmmaker, so you get to go all over the country, and do cool things, but you spent a little time with us this morning.

Do you have an outrage or a kudo?

- I have both.

- Okay.

- So my kudo is for the General Assembly, as a matter of fact, and that is for them extending the HOPE Scholarship three years, and I cannot underscore how important that that investment in Rhode Island is.

- That's the one that pays for two years at RIC.

If you put two years in, they'll do the back end.

- Right.

- And it follows the Promise scholarship that they've had at CCRI.

- Right, and it is an incredible support system for, these are working families, these are blue collar kids often, and the foresight of the governor and the General Assembly to find a way to fund this is my kudo.

- Great, do you have an outrage?

- My outrage is, like, I've never been to Fallujah, but the neighbor, my neighborhood roads are probably- - Baghdad, Fallujah, right?

- Are like that, and they've been like that for years and years and years.

- Have you talked to your mayor about that?

- I've talked to the mayor, to the council people, and I can't get these damn roads paved, and- - What do you think the problem is?

- And it's, yeah, huh?

- The squeaky wheel is not getting the grease here apparently.

- And, you know, the response I get is, "Dante, there are worse roads."

That's my outrage.

- All right.

- Fix my roads!

- All right, thank you, good to see you.

We'll have you back.

- Thank you.

- Paige, good to see you again- - Thank you.

- Hope you have a good summer.

- Thank you, Paige.

- And we want a full report on the World Cup when you come back next time.

- Great.

- Thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel, and once again, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

We'll see you next time here on "Lively."

(lively music) - [Announcer] "Lively" is generously supported in part by John Hazen White's "Lookout."