- [Jim] What's your crystal ball tell you about how this is gonna work?

I just want to be, this is the first place where you're gonna hear it.

- Stop the presses.

- Stop the presses.

We need more money.

(all laughing) There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

- Statistics.

- Okay.

When you use adjusted gross income as a measure, you completely are missing the point.

Did they lose money in Massachusetts or they raised money?

- [Protestor] The world will know peace.

(crowd cheering) - People are not just talking about the Trump administration.

They are making associations with who's allowing him to get away with stuff.

And also accountability for local and state leaders.

So I think it's having an impact.

(lively music) - And welcome into this episode of Lively.

I'm Jim Hummel.

We're joined this time by Weayonnoh Nelson-Davies from the Economic Progress Institute and our political contributor, long time political contributor, Pablo Rodriguez.

An estimated 20,000 people in Rhode Island, and more than 8 million across the United States turned out for the third "No Kings" rally last weekend.

Sending a unified message of dissatisfaction with President Trump and what his administration has done over the past 14 months.

Pablo, of course, his administration tries to say.

The first one, the message was, well, it's a bunch of old people out there who have nothing better to do and now it's reporters paid and people being paid to go out there.

What did you take?

Was this one different in your mind than the previous two?

- It was bigger.

It was no different.

These are people that are dissatisfied with the current situation.

What is going right with this administration?

The immigration situation has been an absolute failure.

Yeah.

They've secured the border.

But the way people are being treated is something that this country does not see themselves as.

The inflation is going back up.

Gas is through the roof.

The Epstein files are getting worse and worse as time goes by.

The coverup is getting worse and worse.

So people are really getting dissatisfied.

And I'm not talking about Democrats.

(laughing) I'm talking about its own base.

The pundits on the right are completely abandoning this president.

And that just creates this mass of people that just want to express their their opinion.

- I agree.

So I was actually a speaker at the "No Kings" rally in October.

And I was sick and my call to action was continue showing up.

And then I was at this one as well.

And I agree the crowd is diverse and people are really focused on issues.

But what is really exciting and what is being underplayed by the Trump administration is an engaged voting population.

Engaged citizen is good for democracy if you don't want a king.

And so people are showing up, that means they're paying attention to the issues.

That means they're more likely will be voting in 2026 and 2028.

So I like the idea of voters and residents being engaged.

There's voting.

They're talking about voting.

There's policy.

They're actually talking about policies at these rallies and they're talking about their fundamental right to peacefully assemble.

So people are understanding and paying attention to what democracy is.

But then the other part I really like and now sitting back, we had a table at this last rally talking about raising revenue.

And I like the fact that people were now connecting the dots with the attacks on voting rights.

So that is coming up 'cause it's new.

Protection of immigrants.

That's a big piece, and tax policy.

There are people who show up at our table, 'cause we were signing petition for people to support an in-state legislation presented by Representative Asante and Senator Murray to tax the top 1%.

- So now they're thinking, oh, what can I do?

This is what I can do.

- Exactly.

And all the tables were really what that was.

It was engaging people.

So people will show up and be like, what, why are you all here?

We're like, oh, it's a tax the 1% in Rhode Island.

And people are like, heck yeah.

Say less.

We're gonna sign.

So people are not just talking about the Trump administration.

They are making associations with who's allowing him to get away with stuff and also accountability for local and state leaders.

So I love it.

I think it's having an impact.

- And the accountability is happening right now.

I mean, when you look at all the special elections that have happened throughout the country.

- [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- Democrats have won every special election in districts where Trump won by a really, even enormous-- - [Jim] Even where he lives.

- Even where he lives in Mar-a-Lago.

So, this is not just people showing up with signs.

These are people that are really upset-- - Yes.

- With the direction of the country.

And is being translated into voter participation.

- I think a lot of people see that so much of their, seemingly, so much of their power has been taken away.

That ICE is running rough shot here.

That we've got a Republican Congress that it doesn't, and Democrats do it or to blame.

Congress seems to be a little dysfunctional.

And I think people, it's beginning to translate now.

What's the only thing I can do?

I can vote.

- Exactly.

- So it's all leading up to the midterms.

And I wonder Pablo, a lot of what fueled President Trump's comeback, Hispanic voters, young men.

They're leaving him in droves.

- He's losing Joe Rogan.

(laughing) - Yeah.

That's kind of tough.

And Alex Jones.

- And Alex Jones.

I mean he's losing all the pundits that supported him in the election.

Hispanics, forget about it.

I mean that's completely dead.

Young men are also leaving the fold because they're realizing that all the promises were false.

- [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- No new wars.

We are involved in new war.

Inflation is gonna go down on day one.

Inflation is going up, gas is up, food is up.

- [Jim] And if you have a 401k, don't look at it.

- [Pablo] That's right.

- Right.

- The Dow, the Dow.

- Right.

Right.

Right.

- Like the Attorney General said in her hearing.

The Dow is really in big trouble.

- Yeah.

No, I agree.

I think people are realizing that it's not America first anymore.

So now we're at a war where we all have to pay for it and people are like, but we didn't sign up for this.

Even people who voted for him.

And the attacks on immigrant rights are opening people eyes to how you can run rogue and violate the rule of law because American citizens are also being impacted.

So I think he overplayed his hand by just going hard on immigrants and going hard on terrorists and all of these things and the war that now people are feeling in their pockets.

When he promised that he was gonna create this utopia where everyone was gonna have money back from the terrorists and America was gonna be first and there was gonna be no wars.

And he's going back on those promises.

- The Big Beautiful Bill has been a complete disaster for Americans and especially when it comes to insurance.

- Yeah.

- Health insurance, losing those subsidies have been felt extremely hard.

- Exactly.

- By many people.

And when you start doing the math that we have spent a hundred billion dollars on this war already.

- [Jim] Could have paid for it.

- That could have covered the subsidies for five or six years.

- Yes.

Yes.

- It's not just for this year, for five or six years, - I've heard some of the right wing commenters say, look, he's not a king.

A judge ruled that the tariffs were wrong and that he can't do the ballroom.

Well he seems to be going forward on both of those.

I heard that the day he got struck down on the tariffs, he said, well I'm going find another way to do it.

- I'm gonna do it anyway.

- And I saw a national news piece the other day that said he's continuing because the judge said, the judge's mistake said, if you need to button it up for safety purposes.

And they used that loophole to get through.

- And put it in.

Right.

- So it'll be interesting to see, particularly they were talking about birthright citizenship.

I know you were looking at that yesterday.

- I am.

- The Supreme Court looked very skeptically on that yesterday.

- I'm hoping they rule the right way.

Because again, when we're talking about democracy, those fundamental things that make America, America.

The point of the "No Kings" is there are some checks, but Trump is pushing every single hole to see what's gonna stick.

And that is scary.

And we need the Supreme Court to really stand on protecting the constitution and the value and what the idea was in creating that constitution.

So that's gonna be a big issue.

And also sometimes the court has to look at what is happening with the current citizens when they make decisions.

It's not just law.

And I can tell you there is not a popular position for a lot of people who live in the United States.

- It shows in the polls, 35% approval.

The lowest of any president.

- So he has his base, but he's losing the independence.

- He's losing his independence.

- He's losing his base too.

- And when it comes to Iran, 30% approval.

That's just basically the MAGA faithful.

- Yeah, I really don't understand because when you talk to Trump supporters.

Look we have a lot who watch every week and I get the email.

A lot said, the two things they hung their hat on was lower gas prices.

Regardless of what inflation was doing, gas prices were low.

Oh and my retirement's gone up.

So if you looked at it just from a political standpoint, it seems to be suicide.

What he's doing it doesn't seem like there was a lot of thought that went into let's go into Iran.

What is the residual outfall form that?

- Exactly.

No, I agree.

And I think part of the issue here is you have to really understand how that's gonna impact people.

And again, I think people are feeling it and quite frankly there are a lot of people, if you really look at what you were saying, knew this was gonna happen and then some of it is like you want to feel like you're still loyal and wanna still believe.

So there is some tension with people saying, I see what's happening, but I still want to believe in him that maybe it will end up to be our good.

But the data, the history and what's happening is showing that is simply not true.

- Final word?

- It really is an incredible time in this country because when you look at the economy, there were no jobs created last year and yet the economy is basically still holding on.

- [Jim] It wants to do well.

- It wants to do well.

- Come on.

- He has completely and absolutely squandered a unique opportunity based on ideas that really are not working.

- All right.

We'll see how it translates in November.

Still got a ways to go.

Is the millionaire's tax proposed by Governor McKee a done deal?

We still have a long way to go before the final budget emerges from the House finance committee later this spring.

And opponents are certainly going to point to an IRS report showing billions of dollars leaving the state of Massachusetts, after the first year the millionaires tax took place there.

Weayonnoh, this is one of your key priorities.

- [Weayonnoh] Yes it is.

- Well you start and then we'll go from there.

You saw the Massachusetts report.

- I did.

- Let's start there.

It talked about $4.8 billion the first year after leaving the state.

What's your reaction to that?

- So, and I'll start by saying let's understand what's happening in our world right now.

We have one Big Beautiful Bill, and we have all these other investments happening.

They've come to a head in Rhode Island.

And so I rarely hope, it's my hope, that policy makers and even the media quite frankly will focus on how do we solve the issue with the gap we're facing instead of this disproven narrative over and over again.

We had trickle down economy.

We had people leaving this state.

Now we're saying money is walking out of state.

That is not how it works.

So lemme break down the reports and what the analysis of what the IRS adjusted gross income data is really about.

So the RRS put out our data showing that there is about $4.2 billion out of Massachusetts.

What people need to understand is people can move in and out of state.

Income does not move in and out of state.

And this is how it work.

And I'm gonna use you Jim as an example for this.

So legendary Jim Hummel decides after the blaze up of 2026, you've had it with Rhode Island and you're gonna move to Florida.

If you do move-- - You've been reading my mind.

(all laughing) - If you do decide to move to Florida, your salary that Ocean State Media is paying you, they're not gonna put that in a box with you and you take it with you to Florida.

That is not how it work.

You are gonna leave, but there will be another Jim Hummel who will come here and will use that money, that adjusted gross income will remain in Rhode Island because they will be paying another Jim.

- So what you're saying is I'm totally replaceable?

Don't tell my bosses that.

- Not at all.

Not at all.

- But my income is replaceable.

- You're income.

You're income stays.

You don't take it with you.

We're not gonna send your income with you every month.

Whether IRS data show is if you move or any of us move to another place, our earnings there, that is what the data is.

It's about what you earn or the assumption of what your earnings is.

'Cause if you retire, the data is not calculating your income as a retiree, which is less than your salary.

They're gonna say, Jim made $80,000 and so his income now in Florida is $80,000.

They're not saying you took it with them.

So I think let's just clear it.

- So what about that analysis?

- Listen, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

- Statistics.

- Okay.

When you use adjusted gross income as a measure, you completely are missing the point.

You need to realize how much money are we raising for the state, which is what we're trying to do.

Did they lose money in Massachusetts or they raised money?

No.

It went up by 3 billion dollars.

And were millionaires, less millionaires in Massachusetts or more millionaires in Massachusetts after this was passed?

38.6% increase in the number of millionaires.

And that has been replicated over and over again in all the states that have raised the top rate.

- Go ahead.

- No.

No.

And we have to realize that, here in Rhode Island, when I first came here, there was a big tax cut for the top earners from 9.9% to 5.9%.

I mean that's a huge tax cut.

And you guys calculated $600 million.

- In this year alone.

- Would be in this year alone, we would receive if that tax would've been left alone.

So, this is a no brainer in terms of the needs of the state.

Especially at a time when the federal government is divesting from all the states.

The cost of Medicaid is going to skyrocket as we get less money.

The cost of food is going to skyrocket for poor people.

Housing is in the worst shape ever.

So we have incredible needs in the state that need to be fulfilled.

And even if you increase taxes on that top 1%, their tax rate is going to go up by 0.6%.

- Exactly.

- So I look at the larger picture and you have... So Governor McKee clearly put this in his budget.

The reality of the budget is despite the haggling, almost all of the governor's budget goes through.

There's kind of nibbling around the edges, but at the end of the day there are very few huge changes.

'Cause the legislature, if they want to, let's say they didn't want to do the millionaires tax, they gotta figure a way to backfill the revenue they're potentially gonna lose.

So House speaker Joseph Shekarchi always says we're gonna have a hearing, well look.

You're pretty confident this year that it's gonna go through.

The question that, and I know you're not counting your chickens yet.

- [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- The question I have is, the federal cuts that we're talking about, we're beginning to feel those now because the big sort of Damocles was, it's gonna affect the budget.

We need to backfill with that.

Where are you seeing that now that we're beginning to feel that?

- We're beginning to feel it and first of all we have a hundred million dollars gap, budget gap, even outside of HR one.

We are beginning to feel it.

SNAP, we've already, people have lost SNAP and we're gonna be on the hook for that to get ready for the administrative calls.

Healthcare.

We are starting to feel it.

We know what's gonna happen.

In FY 2028, Rhode Island is gonna be losing $275 million in Medicaid funding.

So we're already feeling that.

And then we're gonna talk about some other healthcare issues that we have with 33,000 people losing Medicaid.

We have hospitals that are now being bought out in those hospitals and what's gonna happen with the patients is a big concern.

There is now this proposal to close the birthing center in Massachusetts.

So we're really feeling all of these gaps that are affecting it.

And we don't have a rain day fund to really fill in this gaps.

We can talk all day about a big budget, but the reality is we can cut little bit here and there.

It's not gonna fill in at least just for healthcare that $275 million.

In the famous word of George Bush, and again, I feel like the data is such a distraction and I'm like, we've been saying this over and over again.

And Judge W. Bush told us, fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me again.

Can't get food again.

That's what I'm hoping policy makers will be like.

Can't fool us again with this lie data.

- So you're telling me Hummel, don't follow the shiny object-- - [Weayonnoh] Do not!

- Keep your eye on the ball.

- [Weayonnoh] Keep your eye on the ball.

That is the message.

- Use the statistics though.

The weather is a greater predictor of money moving out of the state because people move to Florida.

Listen, there is an issue of fairness that we need to address with our taxes here in Rhode Island.

People that are in the top 1% are only paying 8.6% of their income in state and local taxes.

People in the lowest 20% are paying 13% of income.

Who feels it more?

In absolute terms and in real terms, the people in the bottom 20%.

- What else are you looking at?

There was the childcare.

EPI's been, I've been reading your newsletters.

Childcare credit and RIPTA - [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- RIPTA, kind of is under, kind of falling under the radar screen.

But there were a lot of people out there who said, the bus isn't coming.

My route got caught, I gotta change jobs.

So bring us up to date on those two things.

- Right So child tax credit, that's a big one.

And during the pandemic when the federal government gave families child tax credit, it reduced child poverty rate in half.

So we have again a proven policy that works and then we're like, oh, we see that child poverty was reduced, we're gonna go back up again.

And so for the first time, and Governor McKee to his credit, put that in his proposed budget to say let's establish a permanent fully refundable child tax credit where families will get about an average of $325.

There are proposals to expand that and double that because child poverty in Rhode Island will be reduced twice what the governor proposed at $650 on an average.

That, when we talk about people are not affording cost of living, that is important to put money in the hands of families.

So we're really watching that.

We hope because it's in a proposed budget, it will remain and maybe even be expanded upon.

RIPTA, we're also looking at RIPTA.

'Cause we need to remind people that, people are saying RIPTA is funded at a level.

RIPTA is funded at the level of the cuts that were made-- - From last year.

- Last session.

So there were cuts made to routes, there were layoffs of drivers, and that is still where this budget for RIPTA is.

I was sharing earlier that I talked to a young student who goes to classical.

And she was sharing with me that she lives close to the Amazon site and had to, after the cuts get up at 4:00 AM so she can get to school on time for breakfast in the morning because the bus schedule was now reduced from 45 minutes coming on every 45 minutes to two hours.

So she had to save the little money she had and get a car because it was not safe and feasible for her to do.

So public transportation is still a big issue in Rhode Island.

- And the most spurious argument around all these issues is that we are not gonna be able to get entrepreneurs or people to make business in Rhode Island.

Entrepreneurs and job creators don't move to a place where education is bad, where housing is impossible for their employees.

And when you look at the statistics of what, which millionaires or which rich people move out is people that are already retired and that their income is all investment income.

So it's not really economic activity in the state and it's not really the job creators.

The job creators want quality of life for their employees.

- Finally, let me ask you, healthcare right in your wheelhouse.

Even though you're retired, you've been keeping track of healthcare for 40 years here.

Since we last had you on, Centurion closed the deal on Roger Williams Medical.

We've talked about that a lot.

And Fatima, the state kicked in a little bit of money.

What's your crystal ball tell you about how this is gonna work?

- I just want to be, this is the first place where you're gonna hear it.

- [Jim] Stop the presses.

- Stop the presses.

We need more money.

(all laughing) - [Jim] What a shock right?

- What a shock.

- Thank you.

- There is no way-- - How soon are they gonna come back with their handout?

- By next year.

I mean this is, these hospitals, Roger Williams and Fatima Hospital, they have been under-invested for the last five years because-- - Deferred capital.

- Deferred capital exactly.

- Capital improvements.

- Deferred maintenance.

Even the malpractice insurance was not being paid.

So this is going to be another request by the buyers of these hospitals by saying we put all this money but it's not enough and we need the state to help us cover the gap.

And they will come back.

I have no doubt in my mind that they will come back.

- I agree.

Like healthcare is a crisis in Rhode Island and I think we need to understand that you pair this up with the shortage of primary care physicians.

You pair up with this 275 million we've be losing in Medicaid.

We have a crisis.

We have emergency rooms that are gonna be packed.

We're gonna have an unhealthy population.

So it's something we really need to pay attention to.

And again, you can talk about cutting all day long.

Budget 101, even in your household, if you stop drinking coffee or stop buying Dell Lemonade in the summertime, that will still not be enough to pay your mortgage.

It's the same thing as a state budget.

You have to raise more revenue to deal with the needs of your people and we're gonna need more revenue to deal with this healthcare crises.

- The other thing that was pretty clear was HealthSource Rhode Island.

We talked about all of the, there was the brink of are they gonna renew the federal subsidies?

They didn't, they expired.

Well what happened?

10,000 people just drop their healthcare coverage altogether.

So that puts a strain on the system.

- It's a complete strain on the system that is going to fill up the emergency rooms, as you said, with people that are not doing preventive care.

And that are getting sicker.

Not only that, we are losing all this Medicaid funding at a time when we are asking the states to invest more in the bureaucracy of Medicaid.

So now the recertification of the users is going to be twice a year instead of once a year.

You know how many people were mistakenly administratively terminated the last time they did recertification, 18,000 people.

Those were people that just basically because they didn't have the right address.

They had read the right information.

Imagine a state that can't figure out the W2s for their employees having to-- - They're not gonna do it.

- Having to work on the W2s and all the information of all the Medicaid recipients.

It's not gonna happen.

- Well the Republicans have always hated Obamacare.

They've been trying to get rid of it for years.

Don't have a replacement.

But in this case, Obamacare, the beauty of it was there was a mandate because if the young people, when I was young and didn't take the health insurance 'cause they thought, I'm not gonna get sick.

You need those premiums to pay for Pablo and me right?

- Right, right.

And now we had it in with Obamacare.

And I think people need to understand-- - And now that the mandate's dropped, it ruins you financially.

- It does, financially.

And it's like more people are gonna be under-insured in Rhode Island.

And that is an issue not just for the people but for the hospital systems because they get those reimbursement rates as well.

- Healthy people are going to leave.

Sick people are gonna stay.

The costs are going to increase.

- [Weayonnoh] They are.

- And the hospitals are going to go.

- We got a lot of old people right Pablo?

- [Pablo] Yes we do.

- And Rhode Island, that age is creeping up.

- Absolutely including us.

(Jim & Pablo laughing) - Add me.

- Well apparently Weayonnoh has me moving to Florida.

So I will not be-- - No, you have to stay.

That's just an example folks.

- There'll be another Jim Hummel in this seat.

- Jim Hummel will not be leaving and his income will not be leaving with him.

- I hope not.

All right, let's go to outrageous and or kudos.

Let's start with you.

- So kudos, 401 Gives.

Rhode Island and just finished 36 hours of 401 Gives.

Raised over $5 million for over 700 organizations including EPI.

I'm always impressed and amazed by the generosity of Rhode Island community coming together.

So kudos to United Way and everyone who donated during 401 Gives.

- They expanded it to two days this year?

- They did.

Yes.

- Yeah.

- And what was the thought?

Was just sometimes people after 20, they just begin to catch on after, oh there's something and it's over right?

- Yeah.

So they did 36 hours and started May 31st because Passover started April 1st.

So that is why they started a day early.

- [Jim] Right.

What do you have outrage or kudos?

- This week, the Solicitors General of the United States argued before the Supreme Court that the President of the United States has the authority to change the constitution on his own by eliminating the 14th Amendment, and making the children of immigrants not citizens.

Something that has been going on for over 130 years since this decision was made by the Supreme Court.

It is an absolute outrage.

And the questions from the judges were very clear that they thought this was stupid.

- [Jim] Even the conservative was-- - Even the conservative was.

- The thing that, the most delicious part was when the Chief Justice Roberts.

The guy was clearly in over his head, Trump's lawyer.

Trump stayed there for all of what, 10 minutes and said, I'm outta here.

What was interesting was he said, oh, but times have changed.

And what did Robert say?

The Constitution has not.

- It's the same.

It's the same.

- That must have been delicious for you as a lawyer right?

- Awesome.

No kings.

That was the point.

(all laughing) - All right.

Pablo and Weayonnoh we appreciate it.

Again, always a lively half hour.

And thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel.

We'll see you next time right here on Lively.

(bright music) - [Presenter] Lively is generously supported in part by John Hazen White's, lookout.