Good evening and welcome to# Washington Week.

I'm Vivian Salama in tonight for Jeffrey Goldberg.

It# is possible the Justice Department had just stumbled repeatedly when# it comes to its handling of the Epstein files, but after a year of# overpromising and underdelivering, backpedaling, and some flip# flopping.

The Justice Department was forced by law to release most of# its files related to the late sex offender.

But even that didn't go# as it should have.

The DOJ missed the deadline to make public all# the documents in its possession, and in fairness there are millions,# but still it was striking when it emerged this week that files# containing allegations against President Trump were withheld from the public.# There's a lot to sort through, and luckily we have an expert panel# to walk us through this and the ensuing political fallout.

Andrew# Desiderio is a senior congressional reporter at Punch Bowl News.

My# colleague Sarah Fitzpatrick is a staff writer at The Atlantic.# Stephen Hayes is the editor of the Dispatch, and Torrini Parti is a# national politics reporter at The Wall Street Journal.

It's so great# to see you all.

Sarah, I'm gonna start with you because there's# probably no one who has covered this more closely and for as long as you# have.

Just walk us through, give us an overview of how we got to this# moment with regards to the government's handling of the Epstein files and# where we stand on just the release of those files.

So I think the key# thing to remember about the Epstein story is that it is a case that# has been mishandled for decades, but the reason that we're we're# hearing about this now and why it's exploding into public view is# because for the first time, Republicans in Congress and# Democrats in Congress were willing to openly defy their leadership and# call for the release of these files.

That has never been done before,# and I think that that really is changing the political landscape in# ways that we are still just starting to learn.

And obviously there's# been a big focus, Torrini, on how the DOJ has handled this under Attorney# General Pam Bondi specifically, you know, what do we know about# what documents they've had they've released, what documents they've# withheld, and their position overall on this issue.

Uh, yeah, the, the,# the person who's been most frustrated by DOJ's handling is the president# himself.

He's been so frustrated with Pam Bondi.

She's been on thin# ice with him, and he has the source of his frustration has been the# sort of back and forth and the back ped al ing that we've mentioned, and# we, we reported, you know, months ago that his name has been in the# files and now we've learned that DOJ actually, you know, removed# some of these files and so this back and forth has really sort of# frustrated him.

Um, we've also seen that, uh, you know, they've tried# to change their story, including a cabinet official this week who# who uh Howard Lutnick had initially said, you know, he had cut ties# with Epstein when he learned of um his his behavior, but then he had# to backtrack.

So the president is so frustrated with these constant# back and forths.

He wants the story to go away is the bottom line,# and DOJ continually mishandling, releasing information, taking it# back is not really helping, but do they, do they acknowledge that there# are files that exist um referencing President Trump that they haven't# released.

We know that there are files with his name in it that um# that, that, that we've reported exist.

Um, they just have um gone# back and forth in terms of releasing his name in some files and then# uh removing them.

Stephen, a a lot of this was driven initially by# Republicans who were calling for transparency.

Take us behind that.# What, what, what was inspiring that kind of push among Republicans?# Well, I mean, yeah, if you go long before President Trump's# reelection.

You had Republicans on the campaign trail.

This was# popular among sort of the the right wing broadcasting podcasting set,# making claims about the Epscene files and claiming that they were# going to get Democrats.

I mean, most of this came from a partisan# place, not surprising.

given where we are in the country.

But what's# been so striking is how many of those very same Republicans who# are calling for the release of the files, had promised to get to the# bottom of them, are now saying things that are just the opposite.# I mean, you're talking about Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino, the number 2# at the FBI made it made this, uh, you know, one of the things he# talked about incessantly, and then when he came in, he was less# interested in what was there.

I think because they learned that Donald# Trump's name was in these files quite a lot, and that the things# that we'd heard and seen from Donald Trump in public, raised more questions# about why he was in the files then then then they were not just# President Trump.

We're talking several members of the cabinet,# you know, Torrini just mentioned Commerce Secretary Lutnick, who we're# going to get to in a few minutes, but even Trump aide Steve Bannon,# who's repeatedly been in there, Elon Musk, um, this used to energize# the base, and now it's uncertain, it's unclear where the base stands on this# because it's been so divisive.

you know there was this moment back in# February of 2025, the White House made this big scene of inviting these# conservative right wing influencers to the White House, and they gave# them these binders, white binders, that said, the Epstein files phase# one, and said, you know, this is sort of a down payment on things# to come, we plan on being very transparent.

You're going to learn# a lot from what's in these files that we're giving you right now.

And# the people who had been agitating for the release of more files# looked at what they were given and said, this is old, this is out.# And I think that was a moment when people who had trusted Donald Trump# and who had looked to capitalize on this as something with which# they could attack Democrats, said, wait a second, this is, this is# bogus what they're giving us now.

Obviously we want to mention all# these names that we're talking about just because they're mentioned in# the files doesn't mean that there's criminal wrongdoing, right?

So# Andrew, one of the big developments this week was that both Hillary# and Bill Clinton testified for the House Oversight Committee.

What# do we know about their testimony and how did we get to this moment# where the Clintons were sitting with them to talk about what they# know.

Well, to Steve's point, you know, Trump has been trying to position# himself as the Epstein whistleblower, for lack of a better phrase, right?# And what we've seen is Republicans in Congress, they control the# House, they control the Senate.

Of course, in the House of Representatives# they're more, it's a more Trumpy bunch, if you will, trying# to sort of deflect a little bit from the president in this respect# and go after the Clintons.

Now there are a lot of Democrats in# the House too, particularly younger Democrats who have less allegiance# or practically no allegiance to the Clintons at all and didn't# mind voting to actually hold them in contempt of Congress for originally# not agreeing to testify, but what we saw over the last two days# when both Hillary and Bill Clinton testified, particularly yesterday# during Hillary Clinton's testimony behind closed doors, it appeared# that Republicans were not treating it with that much seriousness.

I# mean, Congress wo man Lauren Bobert took a photo from inside the room# and leaked it to a conservative provocateur who then published it# online.

They had to stop the deposition after that happened, um, you know,# Hillary Clinton was asked apparently about the conspiracy theories from# 2016 like Pizza Gate and all that stuff.

I mean, it just was not a# sort of a serious exercise and what we're seeing now is more and more# that photo that you mentioned, what we're seeing now is more and# more Republicans come out and say that, you know some members of# President Trump's administration, like Commerce Secretary Howard# Lutnick should testify as well, with Secretary Lutnick in particular,# uh, the issue is that he wasn't very forthr about when exactly he# cut off ties with Jeffrey Epstein.

He initially said it was sooner# than it actually was, and then the files came out and it and it and and# we saw that there was communication many, many years after he had said# that they had stopped having any sort of relationship.

Yes, Sara,# you know, you have a great piece um out today.

and also, you know,# I have the advantage of sitting right over, you're right over my# shoulder, so we can talk about a lot of this stuff during the day.# Um, and, and one of the things that you've mentioned in passing# is that for years Democrats didn't pursue the release of these files,# um, in part because of that Clinton link.

Can you talk a little bit# about that and how it as your story talks about, it became a bipartisan# issue.

Absolutely.

This is one of the things that I find most# fascinating about this story, because these all of these files, millions# of these files, could have been released at any point by abiding# Justice Department, by the first Trump administration.

I mean, these# have been there for a very long time, but the reason that that this# is coming out now, I think it's because party leadership had been# very, very clear to the rank and file, do not pursue this.

In part,# I think out of concern about donors, about the Clintons, also for the fact# that it was viewed as a distraction versus things like healthcare.

But# now I think what we saw as younger Democrats, to your point.

realize# that this is a transparency issue.

This is a trust in government issue,# and as Khana says in the piece, the only way that I'm ever going# to get other things passed, as if people believe in government.

One# of the things that's in my piece is that the Clintons were actively# lobbying, calling around on Capitol Hill to Democrats to try and prevent# this vote and to kind of influence how this was being done.

And I# think that really does not, it, it just hits the wrong way with Democrats# that are already feeling very jaded, given what happened with# allegations of a cover-up about Biden's health and Harris's loss, you know,# there's just so much less confidence in the kind of the elder generation# and a real belief that voters want transparency and that is the# winning issue.

It is generational too, because Nancy Pelosi was the# one actually behind closed doors admonishing those younger Democrats# for even entertaining the idea of voting to hold the Clintons# in contempt of Congress.

And when I talked to senators, you know,# when they come back from a recess, for example, their home in their# stay s and they come back to Capitol Hill and say, you know, held events,# what are people, you know, what's on people's minds, right?

We're# hearing this bubble in Washington, uh, you know, what are people# telling you when you're back home?

Um, the intensity of this issue# among the public, right?

Democrats, Republicans alike, senators in both# parties always say to me, people are pressing me on the Epstein# files every single day, every single event I go to, every, every event# I'm at, I get a question about this.

So it's the thing voter# voters care about, right?

The public intensity here, I think, should# not be lost on anyone.

I think even the Democrats who were reluctant# to make this an issue.

What I've been told by some of them is that# they can kind of package it into the broader mid-term issue, which# is Trump has failed on delivering his promises, so you know you can# talk about grocery prices or the economy, but Epstein files is also# another thing because it was a big, big promise to the base that# he clearly has not fully delivered on, so they can kind of wrap# it up into one package.