JIM: COMING UP ON THIS WEEK'S "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT."

TRAFFIC IS MOVING MUCH BETTER ON THE WASHINGTON BRIDGE BUT THERE ARE NEW DEVELOPMENTS ON SEVERAL FRONTS OF THIS ONGOING STORY.

AND THE STATE HAS ALLOCATED HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BUILD HOUSING, BUT NEW UNITS ARE STILL YEARS AWAY.

WE HAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH THE SECRETARY OF HOUSING.

>> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> HI, I'M JOHN HAZEN WHITE JR. FOR OVER 30 YEARS, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF THE POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I'M A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS GREAT PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

JIM: JOINING US FOR A ROUNDTABLE, NANCY LAVIN, STEPH MACHADO, BOSTON GLOBE REPORTER AND CONTRIBUTOR TO RHODE ISLAND PBS WEEKLY, AND PROVIDENCE JOURNAL STATEHOUSE REPORTER PATRICK ANDERSON.

HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US THIS WEEK.

THE END IS INSIGHT FOR THE WESTBOUND SIDE OF THE WASHINGTON BRIDGE AS THE STATE HAS INVITED COMPANIES TO BID ON ITS DEMOLITION TO BUILD A NEW FIVE.

LAWYERS HIRED BY THE STATE ARE PUTTING COMPANIES THAT WORKED ON THE OLD BRIDGE IN THE PAST ON NOTICE OF POTENTIAL CLAIMS.

PATRICK, YOU HAD THE BIG TAKE-OUT ON THE TIMELINE ABOUT WHO KNEW WHAT, WHEN A COUPLE WEEKS AGO.

THEY ARE STILL STICKING TO THIS TIMELINE THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT FINISH OVER TWO YEARS FROM NOW.

IT'S AMAZING -- PATRICK: IT'S AMAZING, THE PROCESS LINES UP WITH A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS FOR GOVERNOR.

I AM JUST SAYING.

[LAUGHTER] I AM SURE IT IS RANDOM.

AUGUST 26 THEY HOPE TO HAVE IT DONE.

HEARD A LOT OF SKEPTICISM THAT THAT TIMELINE IS REASONABLE.

THERE ISN'T A PLAN TO DO EITHER THE DEMOLITION OR THE REBUILD YET.

THEY ARE STILL GOING TO COME UP WITH THAT WHEN THEY FIND A CONTRACTOR.

THAT IS THE HOPE.

A LOT OF THE CONTRACTS ARE GOING TO BE STRUCTURED TO PRIORITIZE SPEED AND GET THE BRIDGE FIRST DEMOLISHED, AND THEN THE NEW ONE BUILT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

JIM: TWO DIFFERENT RFPS.

YOU THINK IT WILL BE THE SAME COMPANY OR TWO DIFFERENT COMPANIES?

PATRICK: I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE.

I THINK THEY HAVE A LIMITED POOL OF COMPANIES TO DO THE REBUILD BECAUSE IT'S A BIG JOB.

IT IS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GO WITH THE ONE THAT IS WORKING ON IT NOW, THAT HAS DONE A LOT OF THE BIG PROJECTS IN THE STATE LIKE THE 610 CONNECTOR, HENDERSON BRIDGE.

IT COULD BE A LIMITED POOL OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO GET INVOLVED OR THAT BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE.

>> WE SAW THIS WEEK, THE ATTORNEY THAT IS PREPARING TO SUE OVER THE WASHINGTON BRIDGE FAILURE SENT OUT THESE LETTERS TO COMPANIES WHO WORKED ON THE BRIDGE.

GIVES US A PREVIEW OF WHO THE DEFENDANTS MAY BE.

YOU THINK THESE ARE THE SAME COMPANIES THAT ARE QUALIFIED AND HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO BUILD A BRIDGE, SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THE STATE HANDLES THAT.

DO THEY WANT TO SELECT A COMPANY THAT THEY ARE ALSO SUING FOR CAUSING THE PROBLEMS WITH THE BRIDGE?

THEN YOU'RE ALSO ELIMINATING A LOT OF THE POTENTIAL OPTIONS.

NANCY: I THINK IT'S INTERESTING, TOO, WHAT PATRICK MENTIONED, INCENTIVES AND DISINCENTIVES TILT INTO RFPS, INCENTIVES FOR FINISHING AHEAD OF TIME, DISINCENTIVES FOR FINISHING LATE.

WE HAVE SEEN THE LAST FOUR YEARS, PRETTY MUCH EVERY CONSTRUCTION PROJECT TAKES LONGER AND COST MORE THAN WE THOUGHT.

THERE'S A BIG INCENTIVE BOTH IN TERMS OF POLITICS BUT ALSO JUST FOR RESIDENTS TO GET THIS DONE.

THE FLIPSIDE OF THAT IS THERE ALL OF THESE INDICATIONS THAT NEGLIGENCE OR -- NOT DOING THINGS BY THE BOOK, AS CAREFULLY AND THOROUGHLY AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TIME, IS WHAT CAUSED THIS.

I WONDER IF SETTING UP THESE RFPS TO SET UP SPEED OVER THOROUGHNESS IS ALMOST CREATING -- HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CREATE THE SAME PROBLEM AGAIN.

I HAVE NOT SEEN A LOT OF CONSTRUCTION RFPS THAT SO HEAVILY INCENTIVIZE OR DOES INCENTIVIZE DISHING AHEAD OF TIME.

STEPH: AS PATRICK POINTED OUT, IF THE BREACH IS NOT OPEN BEFORE THE ELECTION, IT COULD BE BAD FOR MCKEE.

IF IT DOES BEFORE THE ELECTION, THEY HAVE THE RIBBON-CUTTING, IT WILL BE GOOD FOR HIM.

>> YOU INITIALLY SET OUT A TIMELINE IN A CONTRACT WHERE IT WILL BE OPEN BEFORE THE PRIMARY AND THEN IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, GETS DELAYED RIGHT ON THAT TIME.

IT SETS THE STAGE FOR ALL KINDS OF WEIRD SCENARIOS, QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW IS THIS BEING DONE, IS IT BEING DONE PROPERLY, OUR POLITICS COMING INTO PLAY?

REMEMBER, THAT DID COME INTO PLAY IN 2018, WHEN THERE WAS A BIG TRAFFIC JAM CAUSED BY CONSTRUCTION ON THE WASHINGTON BRIDGE RIGHT BEFORE GINA RAIMONDO'S REELECTION BID.

JIM: I REMEMBER COMING IN FROM THE EAST BAY, THEY RIPPED UP TWO OF THE RIGHT LANES.

THEY SCRAPPED THAT PLAN AND WENT AND REPAVED THEM.

SOMEBODY SENT THIS OPTIC DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.

AS SOMEBODY WHO LIVES IN THE EAST BAY NOW, THE THREE-LANE SKEPTICAL.

IT HAS HELPED TREMENDOUSLY.

LAST POINT ON THIS BEFORE WE MOVE ON, PARALLEL, YOU HAVE THE LAWYERS, WHO CERTAINLY KNOW THEIR WAY AROUND RHODE ISLAND CASES.

THEY HAVE SENT OUT THE MESSAGE TO THE COMPANIES THAT WORKED ON THE BRIDGE, WE ARE PUTTING YOU ON NOTICE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

PATRICK: IT MEANS WE WANT MONEY.

THE PLAN IS TO GET AS MUCH MONEY BACK FOR THE STATE AS THEY CAN.

ALL OF THESE BIG COMPANIES ARE INSURED.

USUALLY THE GAME PLAN IS TO TRY AND GET A SETTLEMENT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY.

THE PRIORITY HAS SHIFTED FROM KIND OF FINDING OUT HOW THIS HAPPENED TO FINDING A WAY TO GET MONEY BACK.

THEN IF YOU ARE A COMPANY LOOKING TO BID ON A BRIDGE PROJECT, YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO EVERYONE WHO WORKS FOR THE STATE, YOU ARE THINKING, DO I WANT TO BID ON THIS?

JIM: A BIT OF A DISINCENTIVE.

>> ALSO INSTRUCTED THEM NOT TO TRY -- DESTROY ANY RECORDS, TEXT MESSAGES, ANYTHING THEY HAVE THAT MAY BE SUBPOENAED IN THE CASE.

INTERESTINGLY, ALSO INVITED ALL 12 COMPANIES TO INSPECT THE BRIDGE IF THEY WANT BEFORE THE STATE KNOCKS IT DOWN.

JIM: TO PRESERVE THE EVIDENCE.

>> OTHERWISE THEY COULD GO TO COURT, HOW CAN YOU PROVE THIS?

YOU HAVE DESTROYED THE EVIDENCE.

THEY INSIST THAT WILL NOT DELAY THE CONSTRUCTION, BUT THEY HAD TO LET THE COMPANIES COME AND CHECK OUT THE BRIDGE.

JIM: LAST WEEK, STEPH HAD A CHANCE TO SIT WITH THE SECRETARY OF HOUSING.

WE'VE HAD A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT HOUSING OOVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

YOU CAN WATCH HER FULL INTERVIEW ON PBS WEEKLY BUT HERE'S AN EXCERPT TALKING ABOUT HOUSING STOCK AND HOMELESSNESS.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN.

>> 2000 TO 3000 UNITS ON AN ANNUAL BASIS TO TREAD WATER.

WHATEVER MARKET IS CURRENTLY HAVING INTRODUCED TO IT ON AN ANNUAL BASIS IS 1000 UNITS.

SO BELOW STATUS QUO LEVEL OF PRODUCTION.

STEPH: YOU NEED 2000 TO 3000 UNITS PER YEAR FOR THE STATUS QUO, BUT WHAT ABOUT TO MEET THE FUTURE DEMAND?

>> WE NEED MORE.

STEPH: MORE PEOPLE ARE MOVING INTO RHODE ISLAND THERE ARE MOVING OUT.

>> TO ACHIEVE GREATER AFFORDABILITY, YOU NEED MORE SUPPLY AS OPPOSED TO DEMAND.

WE ARE NOT AT THAT POINT.

WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

IT'S BEEN DECADES IN THE MAKING, THIS PROBLEM.

STEPH: THERE ARE 1300 SHELTER BEDS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS I'M INCLUDING AT THE NURSING CENTER WHICH THE STATE IS ACQUIRING AND IS NOW HOUSING 60 FAMILIES.

SOON TOO, ARE 45 BEDS IN THESE NEW EXPERIMENTAL PALLET SHELTERS IN PROVIDENCE DUBBED ECO VILLAGE.

BUT THERE ARE STILL MORE THAN 500 RHODE ISLANDERS UNSHELTERED, SLEEPING OUTSIDE, ACCORDING TO THE RHODE ISLAND COALITION TO END HOMELESSNESS.

IT SEEMS EVERY WINTER THE STATE IS GRANDLY DEFINED EMERGENCY SHELTER AHEAD OF THE WINTER.

WHEN WILL WE GET TO A POINT WHEN THERE IS NOT A SCRAMBLE?

>> THE HONEST ANSWER IS YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ZERO SCRAMBLE.

THE REALITY IS, WE ARE BEING MUCH MORE PLANFUL, WE HAVE MORE IN THE SYSTEM, BUT WILL THERE COME A TIME WHEN WE ARE NO LONGER LOOKING FOR SPACES FOR SHELTER?

I DOUBT THAT THEY WILL COME.

JIM: YOU CAN WATCH MORE OF THAT INTERVIEW AT WWW.RIPBS.ORG/ WEEKLY.

YOU COVERED A LOT OF GROUND ON THIS.

THE MOST SOBERING THING FOR ME, FOR THOSE OF US THAT TRAVEL TO OTHER STATES.

I WAS IN NORTH CAROLINA THE OTHER DAY.

AND THE OTHER BLOCK THERE ARE APARTMENTS GOING UP.

WE ARE BARELY TREADING WATER.

IS IT REGULATION?

WHAT IS HOLDING PEOPLE BACK FROM PUTTING UP APARTMENTS?

STEPH: A COMBINATION OF EVERY TYPE OF RED TAPE THAT YOU MENTIONED.

WE HEAR FROM DEVELOPERS ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO GET ZONING, BUILDING APPROVALS.

NIMYISM.

NEIGHBORS WHO DON'T WANT AN APARTMENT GOING UP IN THEIR SINGLE-FAMILY NEIGHBORHOOD.

LONG DELAYS IN GETTING TAX DEALS.

LOOK AT THE FAINT TOWER, WHICH WAS INCREDIBLY UNPOPULAR IN THE CITY OF PROVIDENCE, BUT THAT DEVELOPER WHO IS FROM NEW YORK BASICALLY SAID, I AM OUT.

IT TOOK YEARS AND YEARS.

JIM: AND HE WAS LOOKING TO PUT UP HIS OWN MONEY.

STEPH: HE WAS GOING TO HAVE PRIVATE INVESTMENT.

COULDN'T GET THE FINANCING TOGETHER, OTHER REASONS FOR THAT.

BUT IT IS HARD TO PUT UP A TALL APARTMENT BUILDING IN PROVIDENCE THAT IS GOING TO RESULT IN A LOT OF UNITS.

WE ARE SEEING PROBLEMS WITH THE SUPERMAN BUILDING.

JIM: THE ONE ISSUE THEY WERE GOING TO TALK ABOUT, ACCESSORY DWELLING UNITS, THAT SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY THING IN PLAY.

MOST OF SPEAKER SHEKARCHI'S PACKAGE WAS PASSED LAST YEAR BUT WHERE HAVE WE COME IN ONE YEAR?

NANCY: I THINK SPEAKER SHEKARCHI WOULD SAY THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE QUESTIONED HIM ON THIS, A LOT OF THE CHANGES THAT TOOK EFFECT LAST YEAR TOOK EFFECT JANUARY 1.

THERE ARE STILL A FAIR AMOUNT OF CITIES AND TOWNS, IN HIS WORDS, THAT ARE NOT ADHERING TO THE RULES, ABIDING BY THE THINGS THAT ARE NOW LAW.

TO SEE THE CHANGES THAT ARE EVENTUALLY GOING TO SPUR MORE HOUSING PRODUCTION IS GOING TO TAKE YEARS.

ONLY BEING LESS THAN SIX MONTHS IN, WE ARE NOT EXPECTING TO SEE THAT.

PATRICK: IN SOME SENSE, THE PROBLEM IS US.

WE HAVE SET UP A SYSTEM WHERE WE WANT PROPERTY VALUES TO APPRECIATE, WE WANT EVERYTHING TO BE QUIET, WE DON'T WANT NEIGHBORHOODS TO CHANGE, YET, WE ALSO WANT THINGS TO BE AFFORDABLE, PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO MOVE, TO BE HOUSING OPTIONS.

IF ANYONE GOES TO A LOCAL MEETING, BE IT FROM PROVIDENCE TO THE SUBURBS TO A RURAL AREA, IF ANYTHING IS PROPOSED, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE DO NOT WANT IT TO BE BUILT.

THAT IS THE CASE IN MOST OF THE COUNTRY.

THEY HAVE SET UP DIFFERENT SYSTEMS TO ALLOW MORE TO BE BUILT.

VERY DIFFICULT TO BUILD HERE, AND THAT IS NOT EXACERBATED BY THE HIGH INTEREST RATES, RISING COSTS.

THERE IS MORE LEGISLATION.

SHEKARCHI AS ANOTHER HOUSING PACKAGE THAT HAS ACTUALLY RUN INTO A LITTLE BIT OF TROUBLE THIS WEEK, IS IN FLUX BUT YOU MENTIONED THE GRANNY FLAT BILL.

THAT IS PROBABLY THE FASTEST WAY THAT YOU COULD SEE SOMETHING HAPPEN THAT WOULD HAVE AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT.

JIM: THE SENATE TOOK ISSUE WITH THAT LAST YEAR.

STEPH: THE YEAR BEFORE --PATRICK: THE YEAR BEFORE AND THE YEAR BEFORE THAT.

IT HAS REMAINED UNPOPULAR IN THE SENATE.

JIM: LONG ENOUGH THAT THE PEOPLE'S GRANDCHILDREN WILL NEED HOUSING.

PATRICK: THE FORMER SENATOR SUITED TO PREVENT A GRANNY FLAT BEING BUILT ON HIS PROPERTY IN NARRAGANSETT, WHICH ENCAPSULATES PROPERTY TO A T. JIM: HOME LISTENING -- THE HOMELESSNESS THING IS INTERESTING, ALWAYS PEOPLE GOING TO BE THERE.

SOME JUST DON'T WANT TO COME OFF THE STREET.

>> WE ARE SORT OF TALKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT THINGS IN THAT CLIP YOU SHOWED.

ONE IS HOUSING, THE OTHER IS HOMELESSNESS.

IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSING COMING ONLINE AND IS BECOMING MORE EXPENSIVE, MORE PEOPLE AT RISK OF BECOMING HOMELESS WHO COULD PREVIOUSLY AFFORD A PLACE TO LIVE, AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH SHELTER TO HOUSE THEM ALL IN THE STATE RIGHT NOW.

JIM: THE SO-CALLED ARPA MONEY, AMERICAN RESCUE CLAIM MONEY, IS GRADUALLY RUNNING OUT, OR THE STATE IS USING IT TO PLUG VARIOUS HOLES.

NANCY, YOU HAD A GREAT ARTICLE ON THIS.

PART OF THAT ARPA MONEY WAS BEING SET ASIDE FOR POTENTIAL -- WHAT IF ANOTHER PANDEMIC HAPPENED, OTHER PUBLIC EMERGENCIES.

YOU HAD TALKED TO THE INFECTIOUS DISEASE GURU AT RHODE ISLAND HOSPITAL.

I WONDER IS THE ANSWER FROM THE GOVERNMENT, IF WE DON'T LO USE IT, WE WILL LOSE IT -- WHAT IS THE DISCUSSION?

NANCY: THAT IS THE RATIONALE FOR WHY THE GOVERNOR APPROPRIATED ALL OF OUR AMERICAN RESCUE ACT FUNDS OVER A LONG PERIOD TWO YEARS AGO AND NOW WE ARE SEEING ALL OF THESE SHIFTS BECAUSE WE HAVE TO STOP MOVING THE MONEY AROUND BY THE END OF THE YEAR AND SPEND IT IN TWO YEARS.

WHAT WE THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO NEED TWO YEARS AGO, WHAT WE THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO SPEND ON, IS NOW NOT THE CASE.

THE GOVERNOR AND THE DEPARTMENT HAS SAID WE HAVE NOT TOUCHED THIS COVERT MONEY THAT WAS RESERVED FOR VACCINES, CONTACT TRACING.

WE HAVE NOT USED IT IN TWO YEARS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THE GOVERNOR HAS PROPOSED, REALLOCATING MONEY, NEW HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS FUND, ALSO THE ON EMPLOYMENT TRUST FUND, $20 MILLION FOR THE STATE'S SHARE OF THE WASHINGTON BRIDGE.

THINGS THAT WE KNOW WE NEED NOW VERSUS AN ADJUSTED CASE.

THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT IS PUBLIC EXPERTS SAY, THE DATA SHOWS THE JUST IN CASE IS ALSO A REAL ISSUE.

STEPH: THE COVID VACCINATION RATE IS NOT VERY HIGH RIGHT NOW.

IN YOUR STORY, 17%?

NANCY: 18%.

65 AND OLDER, IT IS CLOSE TO OR ABOUT 50%.

STEPH: I ASSUME BY NOW WE WOULD ALL BE GETTING SOME COMBO FLU-COVID SHOT EVERY YEAR, A PART OF OUR LIVES, SO MAYBE THEY NEED TO SPEND SOME MONEY TO GET THE WORD OUT ABOUT THAT.

JIM: I JUST HAD AN AWFUL LASH BACK TO THE CONTACT TRACING.

PATRICK: THAT TERM IS TRIGGERING.

>> I NEVER HAD ONE.

[LAUGHTER] I DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF CLOSE CONTACTS.

JIM: IF YOU GAVE GINA RAIMONDO SOME TRUTH SERUM, I WOULD BET SHE DIDN'T EITHER.

PATRICK: EVERY WEEK THERE WAS ANOTHER CONTROVERSY OVER WHAT GINA DID, THAT YOU BREAK ONE OF THE RULES?

>> WHERE WAS SHE GOING TO DINNER?

JIM: THEN SHE CAME UP TO THE PROTESTERS UNMASKED.

I AM HAVING FLASHBACKS.

THE GOVERNOR IS CLEARLY LOOKING FOR MONEY, TOOK SOME MONEY FROM EAST PROVIDENCE.

HOWEVER YOU PRONOUNCE IT.

GETS BACK TO THE WASHINGTON BRIDGE.

IT IS A PALTRY AMOUNT FOR EAST PROVIDENCE AND PROVIDENCE.

BUSINESSES CANNOT FEEL GOOD ABOUT REALLOCATING MONEY BUT IT IS REALLY NOT A LOT.

PATRICK: I THOUGHT MAYOR DA SILVA IN EAST PROVIDENCE, HIS PLAN TO GIVE OUT GIFT CARDS, WHICH I THINK ALSO HAPPENED DURING COVID.

JIM: WASN'T IT LOTTERY TICKETS% TO INCENTIVIZE PEOPLE?

>> I THINK THERE WAS BOTH.

PATRICK: CLEVER IDEA.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THOUGHT OF WHEN NANCY WAS TALKING ABOUT MOVING ALL OF THAT COVID MONEY AROUND, AT SOME POINT, THERE WILL NOT BE COVID MONEY.

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITHOUT ALL THAT CASH.

IT IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF THE BUDGETS OF VARIOUS AGENCIES AND NONPROFITS, DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS.

IT IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT OF A CALM DOWN IN THE YEARS AHEAD WITHOUT THAT MONEY TO FILL IN ALL OF THE GAPS, PROVIDE A CARROT FOR THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER THING WHEN IT WILL NOT BE THERE.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE USED TO THAT FEELING OF NOT HAVING THIS PIGGY BANK THAT WE CAN RAID.

JIM: YOU SAW THAT TWEET FROM YESTERDAY, HE SAID THE GOVERNOR -- WHAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO DO, USE ARPA MONEY FOR OPERATIONAL EXPENSES RATHER THAN ONE TIME.

THAT WILL BE A PROBLEM IN THE OUT YEARS.

>> YOU MENTION THE MONEY FOR EAST PROVIDENCE, PROVIDENCE, SMALL BUSINESS REALLY FOND.

THOSE CITIES WILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO GETS THAT MONEY IF THE PROPOSAL PASSES.

IT GAVE ME A FLASHBACK TO EARLIER IN THE PANDEMIC, PROVIDENCE PUT A BUNCH OF COVID MONEY INTO A SMALL BUSINESS RELIEF FUND AND GAVE IT ALMOST NONE OF IT BECAUSE THE QUALIFICATIONS WERE VERY STRINGENT.

JIM: WE WERE HAMMERING STEPH IN PRIOR BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT ALL OF MONEY GOING TO BUSINESSES.

THEY WERE WORRIED THEY WERE GOING TO GET AUDITED.

IT WAS THE LAST TIME YOU NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> A LOT OF FRAUD IN THE PPP PROGRAM BUT YOU HAD TO SPEND THIS COVID MONEY BY THE EN OF THE YEAR, OBLIGATE IT.

THE YEAR, CAN LEAVE THE BANK ACCOUNT IN TWO YEARS.

THEY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DO THIS IN A WAY THAT IS NOT GOING TO TAKE A YEAR FOR THESE BUSINESSES TO APPLY AND PROVE THAT THEY WERE HARMED.

THAT IS WHERE THE GIFT CARDS -- LET'S JUST GIVE OUT MONEY IDEA CAME AROUND.

>> SOME OF THE SMALL BUSINESS ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS THAT THE STATE DID, PARTICULARLY THINGS THAT WERE NOT GRANTS, TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE, THOSE ARE ALSO UNSPENT ARPA FUNDS THAT THEY ARE REALLOCATING.

WHAT THE GOVERNOR ORIGINALLY PROPOSED WAS DOING SIMILAR PROGRAMS IN EAST PROVIDENCE AND PROVIDENCE WHEN WE KNOW THAT DIDN'T GET THE UPTAKE THEY EXPECTED IN THE PANDEMIC.

JIM: WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT IT LAST WEEK, THE COLLEGE PROTEST GOING ON ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

ONE HAD JUST BEGUN AT BROWN UNIVERSITY, ONE OF THE FEW ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT GOT NATIONAL HEADLINES FOR NEGOTIATING A SETTLEMENT THAT GOT ALL OF THE ENCHANTMENTS OFF THE GREEN.

WORKING ON GRADUATION FOR MEMORIAL DAY.

NONE OF US HAVE COVER THIS BUT AS YOU LOOK AT THIS, YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW, IN GENERAL HOW THIS HAS UNFOLDED ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY?

PATRICK: LOCALLY, CHRISTINA PAXSON AT BROWN IS COMING OUT LOOKING WELL.

MAYBE SHE WILL GET A JOB AT A STATE DEPARTMENT AS A DIPLOMAT.

JIM: ANTONY BLINKEN'S ASSISTANT.

[LAUGHTER] PATRICK: I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WANTS THE JOB.

BROWN MANAGED TO AVOID SOME OF THE REALLY BAD IMAGES AND CONFLICTS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN NEW YORK AND L.A.

IN PARTICULAR.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT -- IF PAXSON IS TO CREDIT OR IF THE PROTESTERS OF JUST BEING MORE AMENABLE TO NEGOTIATIONS.

ONE THING IT MAKES ME THINK OF IS HOW THIS HAS REALLY TAKEN OVER THE NEWS AGENDA, PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

PART OF THAT IS THE ISSUE ITSELF.

PART OF IT IS THAT THERE IS NOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION AND SOME OF THE OTHER LONG-RUNNING ISSUES, CONTROVERSIES, PROBLEMS THAT ARE STILL HERE IN RHODE ISLAND AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT JUST LULLS PEOPLE'S ATTENTION AND THIS FILLS THE VOID.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT THESE PROTESTS WERE HAPPENING, GETTING SO MUCH NEWS ATTENTION, AT THE SAME TIME THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS ON TRIAL, WHICH IS GETTING SLIGHTLY LESS ATTENTION, PROBABLY BECAUSE CAMERAS ARE NOT ALLOWED IN THE COURTROOM.

ANOTHER THING I COULD COMPLAIN ABOUT FOR EONS.

THE FACT THAT THE PROTEST NEWS STORY HAS CAPTURED MORE OF THE NEW CYCLE, GETTING MORE ATTENTION THAN A FORMER PRESIDENT BEING ON TRIAL I'M A REALLY INTERESTING TO ME.

>> TO GO TO TRUMP'S TRIAL, IT FEELS LIKE THIS HAVE BEEN PLAYING OUT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

NOT THAT STUDENT DISCONTENT AND STUDENT ACTIVISM OVER ISRAEL -PALESTINE IN GENERAL, THAT IS ALSO NOT NEW.

BROWN IS A VERY ACTIVIST SCHOOL.

THEY ARE ALWAYS PROTESTING SOMETHING.

JIM: BUT YOU SEE SWAT TEAMS GOING IN ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THAT IS WHAT MADE BROWN DIFFERENT, THEY DID IT WITHOUT POLICE.

>> WHICH I DID HEAR ON MY WAY IN ON NPR, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT A CLIP FOR A FUTURE INTERVIEW CLAY FROM A BROWN STUDENT SAYING THERE WERE NO ARRESTS OR VIOLENCE, BUT THERE HAS BEEN IN THE PAST.

THE BROWN STUDENTS ARE NOT READY TO LET CHRISTINA PAXSON AND THE ADMINISTRATION OFF THE HOOK FOR NOT ESCALATING THIS AS MUCH AS OTHER SCHOOLS.

NUMBER ONE, A UNIVERSITY SHOULD NOT BE A PLACE FOR BRUTAL POLICE VIOLENCE IDEALLY.

ALSO IT HAS NOT BEEN THIS PEACEFUL OR DEMURE IN THE PAST.

JIM: BROWN IS HOLDING FAST ON THE 41 PEOPLE ARRESTED.

THEY WANT TO THE CHARGES DROPPED AND THE UNIVERSITY IS NOT DOING THAT.

THAT SENDS A MESSAGE.

THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES.

THERE WAS A PANELIST HERE, PROFESSOR AT BROWN, SAYING I APPRECIATE THE PROTEST BUT WHEN THEY TELL YOU TO MOVE, VIOLATING DISORDERLY CONDUCT.

THEY SAY THEY NEGOTIATED A SETTLEMENT.

WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF BROWN EVER DIVESTING?

THEY ARE GOING TO GET A MEETING IN FRONT OF THE BOARD BUT PRACTICALLY WHAT IS THAT GOING TO DO?

>> I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN INVESTMENT, BANKING, HEDGE FUNDS.

I READ, WHAT THE COLUMBIA STUDENTS WERE DEMANDING, IN ORDER FOR COLUMBIA TO DIVEST FROM ISRAEL, INCLUDING DIVESTING FROM GOOGLE AND AMAZON, SOME OF THE LARGEST COMPANIES IN THE WORLD, UBIQUITOUS IN EVERY INVESTMENT PORTFOLIO AND HEDGE FUND.

I'M NOT SURE IF IT IS REALISTIC DEPENDING ON HOW FAR THE BROWN STUDENTS ARE ASKING THE UNIVERSITY TO GO, TO SAY THAT YOU CAN DIVEST IN ANY AFFILIATION WITH ISRAEL.

JIM: DON'T THE ENDOWMENTS HELPFUL SCHOLARSHIPS?

IT ALL COMES BACK TO MONEY, DOESN'T IT?

>> THEY NEED THE ENDOWMENT TO BE INVESTED IN A WAY THAT WILL HAVE RETURNS.

DEPENDS ON WHAT THE PRIORITY OF THE CORPORATION IS THAT IS GOING TO TAKE ABOUT.

JIM: LET'S DO OUTRAGES AND/OR KUDOS.

PATRICK, LET'S BEGIN WITH YOU.

PATRICK: AT RISK OF BECOMING THE BRIDGE GUY -- JIM: YOU ARE THE BRIDGE GUY.

[LAUGHTER] PATRICK: THE GOVERNOR PROMISED A DAY OF RECKONING.

DAY OF RECKONING.

NOT ONLY HAVE WE NOT HAD THE RECKONING, WE HAVE NOT SEEN OR GOTTEN ANY SNIPPET OF THE FORENSIC ANALYSIS THAT THEY HAVE HIRED AN ARMY OF ENGINEERS TO COMPILE AND PUT TOGETHER.

IT WAS PROMISED PROBABLY A MONTH AGO NOW.

IT HAS BEEN MADE SECONDARY TO THE LAWSUIT.

WHO KNOWS IF THE CONCLUSIONS ARE BEING CHANGED TO FIT THE LEGAL ARGUMENT.

WE DON'T KNOW.

BUT THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE SHOULD GET TO SEE THE FORENSIC ANALYSIS AND WHAT THE ENGINEERS FOUND.

JIM: NANCY?

NANCY: ANTONIO HAD A GREAT PIECE, SERIES OF REPORTS THIS WEEK ABOUT THE STATUS OF NURSING HOME VIOLENCE, PARTICULARLY FRAMED AROUND THIS ONE MURDER OF A ROOMMATE MURDERING HIS MALE ROOMMATE AT KRYST WERE NURSING HOME.

BIGGER THAN THAT IS THE LACK OF DATA, SORT OF OVERSIGHT OF NURSING HOME VIOLATIONS, VIOLENCE OF SOME OF THE MOST VULNERABLE POPULATIONS.

GOING BACK T COVID, YOU THINK ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE HAD LOVED ONES IN NURSING HOMES THAT THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SEE, VISIT, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

THAT MAKES THE NEED FOR MORE PROTECTION AND MORE OVERSIGHT ALL THE MORE ACUTE.

STEPH: I WILL DO A KUDOS.

I HAVE HAMMERED THE RHODE ISLAND D.O.T.

ON THIS SHOW, AND I AGREE WITH PATRICK'S OUTRAGE, BUT CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.

I HAVE ONLY HEARD POSITIVE THINGS ABOUT THE NEW LANE THEY OPENED UP ON THE BRIDGE.

IT SEEMS TO BE ALLOWING THE TRAFFIC TO MOVE A LITTLE BIT SMOOTHER.

JIM: IT IS A LITTLE TIGHT, BUT IT IS A QUARTER-MILE, COUPLE HUNDRED YARDS.

IF YOU HAVE BEEN TO NEW YORK THE LAST 20 YEARS, YOU GET TO CONNECTICUT AND YOU ARE THIS CLOSE TO ONE OF THOSE TRACTOR-TRAILER TRUCKS.

I AGREE, NOT THAT BAD.

A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT, PATRICK.

CAMPAIGN FINANCE REPORTS CAME OUT FOR Q1.

HELENA FOLKES, GOVERNOR MCKEE IS SHAPING UP THAT WAY.

TELL ME ABOUT THE FUNDRAISING.

PATRICK: THAT IS THE WAY IT LOOKS LIKE.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET EITHER OF THOSE FOLKS TO SAY ON THE RECORD WHETHER THEY INTEND TO RUN.

WE HAVE ASKED GOVERNOR MCKEE A LOT ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

HELENA FOLKS IS DEFINITELY RAMPING UP.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

SHE HAD BEEN POSITIONING HERSELF SINCE RIGHT AFTER THE LAST V OTE FOR THE REMATCH.

SHE IS GOING TO BE A GOOD FUNDRAISER.

SHE ALSO HAS PERSONAL WEALTH.

THAT PUTS HER RIGHT IN THE GAME OF THE BEGINNING.

THE KEY IS NOT HAVING A TERRIBLE YEAR SO FAR BUT NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT IS SORT OF SEPARATING HIM FROM A TOUGH REELECTION CAMPAIGN.

JIM: AND IT LOOKS LIKE PETER NIMONA WILL NOT RUN, A WILDCARD.

LOOKED LIKE MAYBE SIX MONTHS AGO BUT NOW HE IS TAKING HIMSELF OUT.

>> I CAN'T MEMBER WHAT OUTLET REPORTED IT BUT HE WAS ASKED RECENTLY AFTER PLAYING SHY A LITTLE BIT, I'M NOT GOING TO DO THIS.

IF ANYTHING, I WILL PURSUE SOMETHING IN HEALTH CARE REGULATION.

JIM: 15 SECONDS.

>> HIM BEING OUT OF THE RACE COULD MEAN IT IS A TWO PERSON RACE ESPECIALLY IF HE SUPPORTS HELENA FOULKES.

WE WILL BE WATCHING.

JIM: THANKS FOR WATCHING.

IT IS A QUICK 30 MINUTES.

THINGS WERE JOINING EVERY WEEK.

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VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> HI, I'M JOHN HAZEN WHITE JR. FOR OVER 30 YEARS, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF THE POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.