- [Jim] This week on "A Lively Experiment," a busy and controversial week after the inauguration of President Donald Trump.

And the end is finally in sight for completion of temporary shelters for the homeless.

We'll have the latest.

- [Announcer] "A Lively Experiment" is generously underwritten by.

- Hi, I'm John Hazen White, Jr. For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight and analysis of the political issues that face Rhode Islanders.

I'm a proud supporter of this great program, and Rhode Island PBS.

- Joining us on the panel, former Cranston mayor Allan Fung, Paige Parks, executive director of Rhode Island KIDS COUNT.

And former state representative Mike Marcello.

Hello and welcome into "Lively."

I'm Jim Hummel, and what a week it has been.

We will get to the flurry of activity surrounding President Trump's first week in office a little later, but first up, how Speaker Joe Shekarchi is proposing a process to try and avoid the repeated delays state officials have faced, opening up pallet shelters off Route 146.

It would provide a streamlined process to try and cut through the red tape that has plagued ECHO Village.

So welcome, we should note that this would not apply to the pallet shelters.

It's going forward.

Mike, a lot of people had been calling on Governor, Governor DiPrete, listen to me.

(panelists laughing) Governor McKee, emergency order, emergency order.

The speaker seems to have kinda been threading the needle here going forward.

- I think so, but I think now that he's pushed this legislation, I think it's good legislation.

Unfortunately, I think with the housing secretary, you would think that this coordination would've happened before, like maybe this bill or this proposal would've happened as part of the whole proposal when, you know, her whole job- - A year ago.

- A year ago, when they were supposed to coordinate all this stuff, to get through the red tape.

And obviously the building code didn't catch up with the emergency needs that we had or the temporary shoulders that they were proposing.

So for going forward, I'm sure this bill will pass.

It's gonna amend the building code.

- The speaker.

It's the speaker's bill.

But unfortunately you would think that this would've been flagged early on when they even were proposing this ECHO Village, which they did not.

And I think it's because of the plague of, the leadership turnover in that office has been pretty extensive since it was founded, I think the last budget season or the year before, so, yeah.

- Right, and we should mention, just to set the table, the legislation would basically say, if you're in a community, not only Providence, if your local mayor or town council declares a state of emergency, then you can streamline the process and kind of get, not a get-around, but to be able to relax some of the fire code.

- It's a relaxation of some of the code.

It makes sense.

I mean, there could be, you know, cold weather, could be hurricanes, it could be a lotta different things, but it makes sense.

You just think that it should have made sense like a year-and-a-half ago when they put the agency together.

- Paige?

- Oh yeah, it's taken way too long to get this done.

We have, 100 kids in the last 30 days have been sleeping outside.

And that is- - And think of that, when you go out for a couple of minutes, how cold it is, right?

- Right, we're like running to our cars, and imagine 4-degree weather and we have a child outside, that's atrocious.

It's taken way too long.

And we need to get this moving.

This is an emergency.

If any one of our kids are sleeping outside, wouldn't it be an emergency to us?

No different for our kids who are experiencing homelessness.

We need to act with urgency.

It's taken way too long.

Let's move this along.

It's been too long.

This is a repeated issue.

We have winters every year, right?

(panelists laughing) - It's not like, "Oh, oh, it's Christmas?"

- It's not new.

- You know, this is an example of why people hate government and the bureaucracy and red tape that you encounter every single day, whether it's sometimes, you know, the local resident trying to pull a building permit and you know, some of the obstructions and obstacles they have to go through, to a crisis situation like this.

People want people to make decisions.

And the fact that the governor didn't take probably some actions that he could have, outside of even just the state of emergency, strategic executive orders.

I think Speaker Shekarchi is on the right track of what he's trying to do with this legislation, in the future.

Because, you know, when you're talking about 9-degree weather, whether it's children, families, anyone outside, it's unconscionable, and he had to act.

But part of the problem also is the lack of focus.

While it's great that we're talking about temporary shelters and getting these up, the bigger crisis is, Rhode Island has the second highest, across the country, chronic homelessness in the country.

That's a very staggering, sobering figure.

And what it shows me is that we have to be more innovative in this housing crisis, do a lot more permanent housing, think out of the box like what's going on in that Crossroads property down on Pine Street, where they're gonna be putting together innovative housing for a lotta individuals that have also needs, mental health needs, health needs, and putting those services- - Wraparound.

- Right in where they're living.

That's what we have to focus on.

That's what government has to do.

Stop talking about it.

Make a decision, let's go.

- Paige, has it gotten worse in the last couple of years?

I mean, you're on the front lines with knowing with families and kids, particularly as your focus.

Are things getting worse or better?

- There have been BAND-AIDS that have been put into place that, it's not a long-term solution.

So we know DCYF has been using part of their budget to be able to put families with children into housing, but that's not a permanent solution.

And so we, it hasn't gotten better.

We've had some BAND-AIDS along the way, but it's not a long-term solution that's going to help families and children in the long run.

- I could say in East Providence, we, the planning board just approved, I think, a plan for 150 units.

It's gonna be- - And you're the solicitor- - Yeah, and it's gonna be- - In East Providence.

- And it's gonna be a wraparound.

It's gonna be for all different, kids who age out of foster care.

It's gonna, some homeless issues.

So it's good, but it does take time to build these things and get through the permitting process.

And it, you know, took us about a year to do so, with all the planning.

- You, we've been talking about affordable housing, probably back to your time in the legislature.

We've thrown a whole pile of money at it.

250 million of the ARPA money.

There's another $120 million of bonds that the voters voted in.

I wonder, Allan, you know, the speakers also had this package of bills to get through.

But you know from doing work in various communities, and we've said this repeatedly, not one size fits all.

And there has been- - Right.

- Some resistance locally.

- Yeah.

- Do you think that's gonna continue?

- It's always gonna be continuing, especially in Rhode Island, 'cause we're such a small state, very parochial in nature.

Everyone has, you know, found out in certain communities that when they don't want something to happen, the way to get what they want is to gather together, hire lawyers, fight it, use that public, you know, forum to kinda really get their issues across and be the "not in my backyard" crowd.

And, you know, it works in some communities to kinda push it off, but we have to also look strategically about this because what's going on in Providence, Woonsocket, East Providence, isn't the same as what's going on in Burrillville, some of the small communities like Narragansett.

You know, you can't have a one size fits all.

It's gotta be comprehensive, looking at the size of communities, the impact on the communities.

But you're always gonna have that challenge because of how small we are.

- I think the larger issue for some of the rural communities, we don't have the infrastructure to support dense housing, you know, where like, you know, of water, sewer, you know, where I live in Scituate- - Foster, right?

- Where I live in Scituate it's wells and septic systems.

We don't have public sewers, and you can't put as many people in a acre of land as you could in the city because we just don't have the infrastructure.

But the laws that have been passed apply to everybody.

And so it's gonna be a real challenge.

- Or even the public transportation.

- Correct.

- And you're seeing right now with the state budget that significant cut where, not even cut, not meeting what RIPTA's needs are, that type of long-range planning has to all come together when you're talking about sustainable housing for individuals.

- Yeah, I think a lotta people would like to see, where is all this money that we're spending going?

Do we have, do we see results?

- Right, and how do we, and I think Allan said exactly right, how are we put putting it all together?

What is, how do all the pieces come together to ensure that all Rhode Islanders, especially our lower income and working families, have access to opportunity, and so their kids are able to grow up and not have the traumas of the past that are impacted by poverty?

So how does transportation, education, housing, how does that all come together to make sure that we are supporting all of our families?

How are we connecting it to mental health resources, workforce development programs?

All those pieces have to come together in a really clear plan, to move us forward, that also reflects, as you're saying, the diversity, the geographic diversity of our state.

But we all have to be in this together under a clear vision and mission.

Otherwise we're gonna keep having these problems over and over again, which in the long term, costs us a lot of money as a state.

- Allan, you were, we had talked a couple of weeks ago when the mayor, Joseph R. Paolino, Jr., was rumblings about, well, maybe we want to challenge some of the law going forward.

I don't know whether that's just talk or whether it's a threat.

Do you think we're gonna see lawsuits from towns against the state laws that have been passed, to say, "We need more local control," or is it, "Hey, it's a state law, we gotta obey it"?

- You know, let me, full disclosure, I gotta step back a little bit from the Johnston-specific, 'cause I represent the town.

- Right?

- But in general, I think it gets back to what I was saying.

It can't be a one size fits all approach because the circumstances, whether it's Johnston, some of the smaller, other communities, North Providence, Narragansett, you know, they're different from what you're encountering in the urban areas.

So, you know, it cannot be, and there's gotta be that local say.

And that's why what Speaker Shekarchi put forward in that legislation that he's gonna be doing, there is that component about the local control, local declarations.

And I think that's gonna be a strong part of any type of legislation on any of these issues, especially on a critical issue like housing, 'cause it's an impact within each other's backyards.

- What about that?

- That Low and Moderate Income Housing Act, which is the subject of the Johnston case, it's been around for a while.

The problem with the law is that it increases the density regardless of what the underlying zone is.

And that's a real problem for some of the more rural towns that- - For infrastructure.

- It didn't have the infrastructure, but it's a one size fit all.

- Have you seen ADU's applications for that?

That was the big deal last year.

It got held up in the Senate two years ago.

Have there been more- - They're starting- - In the pipeline?

- Yes, there are, in East Providence, I represent Tiverton there.

Yes, they are moving forward.

People are converting the garages.

People are converting, you know, outbuildings and whatnot.

So yeah, it's getting more popular, 'cause housing is so expensive and people are just trying to, you know, either it's for their son or a grandparent or elderly parents.

They're, you know, they're converting the garages or an outside shed, not a shed, but, you know, outbuildings, into these ADUs, and that is popular, and it's gonna be interesting.

I think there'll be more of it.

- Okay, we had just gotten details of Governor McKee's proposed budget for next year, $14.2 billion, this was happening right as we were taping last week.

We've had a little bit of a week for it to breathe.

As you look at this, to me, look, the COVID money was great.

The budgets were flush for years.

Now we're kinda back to where we were before.

You're an advocate for your organization.

What do you see in this proposed budget?

- So Rhode Island KIDS COUNT is analyzing the governor's budget, but what we see so far on a first glance, there are some things in there that we are really happy about.

So we're thrilled that the governor has included baby bonds into his proposed budget, which would provide a $3,000 bond for children who are born in the Rhode Island Works program, which is our cash assistance program.

So these are our kids who are the poorest kids in the state, so that by the time they're 18, they can cash the bond to be able to be spent in Rhode Island for either education, housing, to buy a car, or to start a business.

So we were happy to see some like proactive measures included in the governor's budget.

The assault weapons ban also included is a priority of ours.

So we're really excited to see that.

But there wasn't much other stuff in there that we were really hoping for.

For example, child care.

Child care continues to be an issue in our state.

We had some federal relief dollars to help us out.

But now as you said, we're back to where we are and the child care crisis hasn't disappeared.

And so we need continued funding to figure out how we are going to increase our rates for child care providers.

Also, child care for child care educators has been really successful over the last two years, has kept our child care providers being able to work and have their children also have child care coverage.

But with that not in the governor's budget, that's not continued on, we're gonna continue to see the crisis.

And, Medicaid coverage.

As a state, we have been so proud over the last several years to be leaders in coverage for Medicaid for kids.

We were number two in the country for several years.

We've dropped down to number 10, and the governor did not include continuous Medicaid coverage, which is what we have been advocating for, which would mean that kids who are eligible for Medicaid will continue to be eligible through age, up to age three.

That's what many other states are doing.

That's partially why we are losing our spot as a leader in the country.

And that was unincluded.

So we're disappointed to see that.

- Yeah.

- Well, two things that kinda jumped out at me when I saw that budget.

First of all, the fact that pre-pandemic, we were at $9 billion.

And I remember when I was running for governor and I was like, this is getting to the point where we're gonna be hitting 10 billion soon.

- It seemed unsustainable back then, didn't it?

- Back then, and now, here we are at $14.2 billion, in a short five-year span.

And that's kinda crazy.

And where are those priorities being targeted?

And the biggest issue for me, that I see that it's gonna be a concern, not only in this budget, but in successive budgets, 'cause we're in a crisis mode, is the healthcare cut to the hospitals.

Right now, we are in a very delicate situation in healthcare, not only just with the hospitals, but as an entire state, as a country, where especially in Rhode Island, you know, you're seeing ERs are packed, hospitals not having enough beds for people to get treated.

You see the closure of what happened with Pawtucket Memorial, that's having an impact on Miriam and other hospitals, and you're also seeing two other hospitals in bankruptcy because their parent company- - Not to mention primary doctors.

- Primary doctors, lack of primary doctors.

And when you're cutting funding into those, Hospital Association of Rhode Island was correct, you are on the precipice of a dire crisis, because healthcare impacts everyone in the state.

Because when we're talking about from a big picture standpoint, not only housing, food, transportation, but everyone is entitled and needs healthcare, and that is gonna be the next crisis.

Not putting funds into healthcare and addressing some of those issues is gonna be a big concern and a big failure in this budget.

- Education aid is up, or, which is, I think a lot of cities and towns were happy to see, 'cause there was a concern that we wouldn't have that cushion, and that some of that federal money was going to be taken away and that the state wouldn't make it up.

But I think while he did put more for educational aid, which as the mayor knows, is the biggest part of a local budget is education funding.

So I think that's a good thing.

Some of the other things, obviously, I think the easy times are over.

I mean, this is, when I was there, we were doing pension reform every other week.

(panelists laughing) But, so the federal spigot is now off, and they're gonna have to make some tough, tough choices.

And I think it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out given that the dynamics of the membership have changed dramatically since I left.

- Right.

- So- - It's shifted to the left.

- It's more liberal, absolutely.

And it's gonna be interesting how those competing interests of people who, you know, advocate for housing, people who advocate for better transportation dollars, people who advocate for education, or, you know, a myriad of things.

And it's going to be a very interesting dynamic, how it's all going to fit together.

- Going back to the healthcare, I had originally said the governor was gonna provide student loan forgiveness to keep people in Rhode Island.

It sounds great.

He budgeted $400,000, which is, I mean, it's a drip- - It's a drip, right.

- In the bucket.

But, you know, we should have, we always say we should have been doing this 10 years ago.

Somebody should have seen on the horizon, particularly with doctors, the inequity between Massachusetts, even just going over the line, if you live in Barrington going to Seekonk.

So, but there was nothing in the budget about that.

- Exactly, you know- - Aiming at increasing reimbursement rates.

- Right, because you're in a situation where even if you get these young doctors to get forgiven whatever, a portion of their loans, they're not gonna come here 'cause they're not gonna- - The revenue stream.

- Make the dollars when you can go north, you know, just a few miles over the Mass line and make significantly more, and get reimbursed, you know, more from their healthcare insurers.

- I think the biggest issue that we fail to address as a state is the continued structural deficits that we have, whether Republican governors or Democratic governors.

One of the most interesting topics that when I was in the legislature, we had someone from, I think from CVS come and said, "Look, big businesses look at a lotta different things when they come here," but one of the things that they've definitely focused on, what is your budget situation look like?

And when there's a structural deficit- - You're always in crisis.

- Right, right.

- If there's a structural deficit, they look at that and they say, "Number one, that means either services are gonna be cut or taxes are going to be raised," to try to shrink that deficit.

And we just haven't had a plan.

You know, if I was governor or if I was the speaker of the house, I'd focus on getting a three or five-year plan to figure out, how do we get to zero, to balance these budgets, to get rid of this crisis.

- Sounds like a Republican there, Mike.

- Yeah.

(panelists laughing) - He is in Republican territory.

Any final thoughts on the budget?

- Well, we we're gonna go through a legislative process now.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And we call on the General Assembly to like- - What happens at the end is not always at the beginning.

- Yes, so it's up to our General Assembly members to really be listening to community, listening to what the needs are, and putting again, some of this funding that the governor unfortunately did not put in, so funding for- - But the reality is, and you know from being up there when they make the sausage is, if they're gonna add something in, then there has to be a corresponding cut somewhere.

And there's probably some special interest group that's not gonna like that either.

So it's a tough road when you have tough budget times, right?

- Right, and there's been ideas proposed, like the Revenue for Rhode Islanders, where increasing taxes on the top 1% could be an option to look at, at how are we trying to work this out so that we don't cut the really important programs that our communities need.

- Okay, did you know we have a new president as of Monday?

(panelists laughing) Donald Trump, 45 and 47th president of the United States.

This has been a week that, if you turn off the news for a couple hours, you got a lot to catch up on when you turn it back on.

Allan, let's begin with you, with the caveat that probably this Republican Party is not the one that we all grew up with.

- (laughs) Yeah.

- Maybe that you ran with, but the president has come out of the blocks with a lot of stuff, some of it troubling, some of it, I think, fulfilling campaign pledges.

What do you see as the week has unfolded?

- You know, I think what he's really used that experience from the first four years to realize that look, if he's gonna get anything accomplished, 'cause in his final four, he's gotta hit the ground running.

And a lot of it is fulfilling campaign promises, but it's also addressing some of the dire crises that are going on in our country right now, whether it's the immigration front where, you know, it's been clear.

I'm not a supporter of open borders where anyone can just come in, and he's addressing that at the southern border crisis, which because of what had happened in the last administration, you're seeing that bleed into communities all across the country.

So that was one of the first executive orders and something that he talked about in his, you know, inaugural address.

So he's acting quick, acting swift on a lotta different issues, whether it's on the campaign trail, but also stuff that he's seen firsthand impact the country.

But he's also doing what he's doing.

I've heard today that he's gonna be flying out to California, you know, see what's needed there.

Even about North Carolina, where that western part of, you know, you're a Tar Heel.

- Yep, I saw, yep.

That part has been forgotten.

So he is taking all of those issues in stride and moving quickly.

- Paige, reaction to the first week?

- Well, I'd say, I think you're being, (laughs) perhaps describing his actions a little bit more generously than I would.

So yes, we need immigration reform, but I say this is in a form of creating fear amongst residents, citizens, and also really vindictive, nasty, and not helpful for community members.

If you wanna talk about immigration reform, great.

We need to look at that.

But to target communities to, or to challenge the elements of the 14th Amendment, which has many other implications- - [Jim] Birthright citizenship, yep.

- To challenge birthright citizenship, we are, all of us are here from birthright citizenship.

It's just completely counterintuitive.

It's instilling fear among folks who are citizens, and people who are mixed status families.

For children, really concerned about children being able to access their health insurance, their medical treatment, being able to go to school, being able to get the services that they are entitled to as citizens, but as fear of what it means for their families, the fear of deportation.

This is not just immigration reform.

This is a form of terror on the people that we really rely, people who pay taxes as immigrants into our state, into our country.

It's just not acceptable.

- Quick response, before we to Mike?

- Yes, 'cause we're not talking about citizens here.

I think the executive order is talking about targeting, let's face it, MS-13.

Some of the first wave that we've seen ICE go after are some of those criminals, hardened criminals that have records, that preyed upon individuals in our backyards.

Child sex abuse, child trafficking, you know, like I said, a lot of individuals that, you know, haven't followed the rules here, they need to go.

- But this is a general, it's been laid out as a general statement around immigration.

So I do say citizens, because we have heard in the first term, I heard a heartbreaking story of a child who was in a school, had a epileptic attack, and this had been happening many times.

And we found out that mom was afraid to call the ambulance because of immigration status.

- That they were gonna get scooped up.

- Even though she was a citizen and the child was a citizen, there was still fear around that.

- [Jim] Mike?

- So I parked myself in front of the TV on Monday.

I watched every speech that he gave.

I watched the upstairs speech and I watched the downstairs speech.

The upstairs speech, you know, I think of an inaugural address as of, you know, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Ask not what we could do for your country."

Trump said, "Drill, baby drill," in his inaugural straight, at the same time praising the firefighters in California who are fighting these fires that everyone attributes to the change in the climate.

- Not making the- - Not making the connection.

- Not making the connection, so I found that a little interesting.

And then you had the downstairs speech where it was the same litany of the vindictiveness, the going after, like his enemies.

I thought it was pretty classless that he couldn't even thank, you know, Joe Biden for his 50 years of public service.

Whether you agreed with him or not, he's still the president of the United States.

I think at the end of the day, he's doing exactly what he said he would did on the campaign trail.

He did win, and I give him, he won fairly.

He still won't concede that he lost the 2020 election.

This is what the people voted for.

I just, I'm concerned that the Democratic Party has not yet figured out how to answer some of these policies or how to deal with this.

But it's going to be a long and bumpy ride.

And I think we just have to accept the fact that he's unlike any other president we've ever had, and- - Probably will be.

- And probably will be, yeah.

- There was an interesting column in "The Washington Post" by Karen Tumulty, and she said, "One of the biggest mistakes that his political opponents, and yes, the media too made, during Trump's first term was to follow him down every rhetorical rabbit hole, and explode whenever he posted something outrageous on social media."

And the point of her column was, watch what he does, not necessarily what he says.

- What he says.

- So I think that's going to, but what you're saying is the perception, particularly in that case that you said, a lot of people think he's gonna be doing this.

Let's see what actually happens over the next couple of weeks and months.

All right, let's get to outrages and or kudos.

Paige, let's begin with you this week.

- Sure, so, outraged over the state of homelessness and unhoused kids in our state.

It's cold outside, 100 kids in the last month sleeping outside is absolutely outrageous.

We need to do everything that we can to make sure our kids are not outside in the cold.

We wouldn't do it with our own children.

We shouldn't, it's not uncomfortable for anyone's children.

- [Jim] Allan, what do you have?

- You know, actually both a kudo and an outrage, all out of the same circumstances.

First Asian American elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, Ichiro Suzuki.

That's a very proud moment, and I will be going to that induction ceremony.

- And who was the guy who didn't vote?

- And that's my outrage.

- Is that the outrage?

- Who is that one jerk out there?

Remember the press, let's face it, who didn't vote for him?

- Are we gonna find out who that is?

Did they- - Oh, I'd love to find out, come on.

All these internet people, find this guy out and kinda dime him out.

- [Jim] I didn't realize he's the first.

- He's the first Asian, yeah.

- That's amazing.

- I am gonna be going to Cooperstown to kinda watch that induction ceremony.

A little proud heritage moment for myself.

- Oh, that'd be great.

Mike, what do you have?

- I think it's pretty obvious.

And I think it's a bipartisan outrage.

I think the preemptive pardons by Biden on his way out the door, and the pardons by President Trump of the 1,500 people on the January 6th.

I think it sets a very bad precedent, sends the wrong message to law enforcement, and it just creates a mockery of the whole pardon process.

If anything needs to be reformed in our constitution, at one point there was a proposal that maybe pardons have to be subject to Senate approval.

Something needs to be done.

I think it was just ridiculous.

A preemptive pardon on the way out the door to family members, I just don't, I think it's bad and I think that we're just gonna open up the door to future presidents to do the same.

- Well, and I also wonder, if you're one of those people and you've done nothing wrong, does it make it sound, there was somebody on the J6 side, the woman said, "No, no, I did this.

I want to take responsibility.

I don't want a pardon."

Now she wasn't spending 10 years in jail, but I wonder about that.

It's raised the issue constitutionally about pardons, but there's no way around it.

There's discretion for each president, right?

- Right, and Mike raised a good point, on both sides of the aisle.

'Cause pardons are supposed to be specific, case by case, and make a judicial decision as to whether that individual deserves this or not.

And both sides, from what we see, it's just kind of been, you know, taken to that next level.

And I'm just afraid of what is gonna continue to happen if this is how we're gonna keep moving- - It's a new tradition that I don't think is good for the country, good for the, as a lawyer, I think it's outrageous.

- Okay, folks, that is all the time we have.

It's a quick 30 minutes.

Thank you for joining us.

Allan, good to see you again, and Paige.

Mike, nice to have you back.

Folks, if you don't catch us Friday at seven or Sunday at noon, we are all over social media.

You can catch us on Facebook, X, wherever you get your favorite podcast.

And we archive all of our shows at ripbs.org/lively.

We are moving quickly through the General Assembly session.

There are new bills coming out every week.

Join us back here next week.

We'll have a full analysis of what's going on, both state and national.

We hope you join us as "A Lively Experiment" continues.

Have a great weekend.

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- Hi, I'm John Hazen White, Jr. For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight and analysis of the political issues that face Rhode Islanders.

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