A Lively Experiment 2/17/2023

>> THIS WEEK ON A LIVELY EXPERIMENT, IS IT TIME FOR CAMPUS POLICE AT ALL PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS IN RHODE ISLAND TO BE ARMED?

THE SENATE PRESIDENT WANTS TO SEE ANOTHER EXPANSION OF GAMBLING.

>> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I AM JOHN WHITE JUNIOR.

A LIVELY EXPERIMENT HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF THE POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I'’M A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

>> JOINING US, LISA RANGLI, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE RHODE ISLAND BLACK BUSINESS ASSOCIATION, KEN BLOCK, FOUNDER OF WATCHDOG RI, AND BILL LYNCH, FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE RHODE ISLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

WELCOME TO LIVELY.

I AM JIM HUMMEL.

APPRECIATE YOU SPENDING PART OF YOUR WEEKEND WITH US.

THE MASS SHOOTING IN MICHIGAN THIS WEEK HAS MANY COLLEGE CAMPUSES REVISITING THEIR SAFETY PROTOCOLS AND IS LIKELY TO REIGNITE DISCUSSION ABOUT A PROPOSED BILL TO HAVE CAMPUS POLICE IN RHODE ISLAND COLLEGE AND SEE -- AND CCRI TO CARRY FIREARMS.

A SIMILAR PROPOSAL DID NOT GAIN ANY TRACTION FIVE YEARS AGO.

THIS IS AN EVOLVING DISCUSSION.

WE HAVE MICHIGAN STATE REIGNITING THE DISCUSSION.

I WONDER IF WE ARE AT THE POINT THIS IS SOMETHING WE WANT TO DO OR IF THE CAMPUSES ARE EQUIPPED TO DO IT.

>> MY HEART GOES OUT TO THE FAMILY THAT HAVE LOST THEIR CHILDREN.

GUN VIOLENCE IS A REAL THING BUT ALSO MENTAL HEALTH.

AS A MOM, I CANNOT IMAGINE SENDING MY CHILD OFF TO SCHOOL AND FOR THEM NOT TO COME HOME, SO THAT IS PAINFUL, BUT LET ME SAY, I THINK THEY DEFINITELY NEED TO EVALUATE WHETHER HARMING COPS, GIVEN COPS -- GIVEN COPS FIREARMS IN SCHOOL, IS THE RIGHT ANSWER.

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT BLACK AND BROWN STUDENTS ON CAMPUS.

YOU WANT TO ENSURE YOU HAVE SAFETY AND PROTOCOLS IN PLACE, BUT WHAT IF A POLICE OFFICER SEES A BLACK STUDENT AND DECIDES THAT I AM GOING TO TAKE THIS PERSON OUT JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK?

THAT'’S A REAL CHALLENGE.

THERE WAS A STUDY RECENTLY THAT SAYS 46% OF STUDENTS SAY, YES, IT FEELS BETTER WHEN COPS HAVE FIREARMS ON CAMPUS.

THAT SAME STUDY CITED THAT 37% OF BLACK STUDENTS DID NOT FEEL SAFE, SO I THINK -- WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CCRI, WHERE BLACK AND BROWN STUDENTS, A LARGE POPULATION OF THEM.

I AM CONCERNED.

WE HAVE TO PROTECT OUR CHILDREN BUT I'’M NOT SURE GIVEN COPS FIREARMS IS THE WAY TO GO.

>> WHERE YOU STAND IS WHERE YOU SIT ON THIS ISSUE.

TRAINING WOULD BE AN ISSUE.

>> TRAINING IS OBVIOUSLY A BIG PART OF IT.

MY PERSPECTIVE ON IT, I THINK IF YOU HAVE A PROTECTIVE FORCE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE STUDENT POPULATION IS SAFE, IT'’S HARD FOR THEM TO PROTECT THE STUDENT BODY WHEN THEY DON'’T HAVE THE ARMAMENTS NECESSARY TO REPEL SOMEBODY WHO'’S COMING IN WITH A LOT OF FIREPOWER.

I KNOW PERSONALLY SOME CAMPUS POLICE OFFICERS AT RHODE ISLAND COLLEGE AND THEY PERSONALLY FEEL THEY CANNOT DO THEIR JOB APPROPRIATELY WITHOUT ARMS IN THE CASE WHERE SOMEBODY WITH ARMS SHOWS UP.

SO I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM AND IT'’S A CHALLENGE ACROSS THE BOARD BUT I THINK IT'’S THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF THE POLICE FORCES TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THE STUDENTS THAT THEY ARE THERE TO PROTECT, IT'’S HARD TO FIGHT BULLETS WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A BULLET PROOF VEST.

>> I THINK LISA'’S POINT IS WELL TAKEN BUT I THINK IT'’S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE.

IT IS A BALANCING ACT.

IN SOME PLACES IT'’S BEEN ENACTED, IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING, BUT THEY WILL LOOK AT IT CLOSELY HERE WITH INPUT FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT AND OUR ACADEMIC PEOPLE.

THERE ARE CONCERNS ON BOTH SIDES, BUT A BULLET DOES NOT KNOW SKIN COLOR, AND I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT, IN THIS COUNTRY, THE NUMBER OF MASS SHOOTINGS, I SAW THE OTHER DAY SOMEWHERE THAT THERE HAD BEEN MORE DEATHS FROM MASS SHOOTINGS THIS YEAR THAN WE'’VE HAD DAYS IN THE YEAR, AND THEY ARE YOUNG CHILDREN FROM ALL BACKGROUNDS, ALL RACES.

I MEAN, IT'’S TERRIFIC.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE KEN TAKE SOME TIME AND SEE IF HE CAN GET HIS FRIENDS IN THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT GUN CONTROL.

>> HAS MITCH MCCONNELL ON SPEED DIAL.

>> THERE'’S NO DISCUSSION AMONGST THE NATIONAL -- I'’M NOT BLAMING KEN, BUT THERE'’S NO DISCUSSION AMONGST THE NATIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY OF ANY CONSEQUENCE TO ANYTHING ABOUT GUN CONTROL, ZERO, AND IT'’S JUST OUTRAGEOUS AND THERE'’S THIS 24 HOUR OUTCRY WHEN WE HAVE ONE OF THESE HORRIBLE MASS SHOOTINGS, INCLUDING FROM THESE REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS, TO SAY HOW HORRIBLE THEY FEEL, AND THEN, 24 HOURS LATER, IT IS OFF TO OTHER BUSINESS AND NOTHING HAPPENS.

WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT HAS THIS PROLIFERATION OF FIREARMS.

IT IS JUST HORRIBLE.

WITHIN THE LAST TWO DAYS, THERE WERE GUNSHOTS FIRED OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL IN PROVIDENCE.

YOU TALK TO THE LEADERSHIP AND POLICE DEPARTMENT AND MAYOR'’S OFFICE AND YOU HAVE THESE GHOST GUNS AND UNREGISTERED FIREARMS SO THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM IN MICHIGAN OR JUST FLORIDA OR CALIFORNIA.

IT IS HERE IN RHODE ISLAND.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE BIPARTISAN ACTIVITY IN TERMS OF TRYING TO DO MORE ABOUT IT.

>> THE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT PROVIDENCE POLICE ARE RELATIVELY CLOSE, BUT YOU LOOK AT SCENES LIKE MICHIGAN STATE AND VIRGINIA TECH.

IS IT BETTER TO HAVE SOMEBODY THERE?

A LOT OF PEOPLE ON CAMPUS REFLECTED WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.

THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO.

WE DON'’T KNOW.

IT IS A CRYSTAL BALL QUESTION.

I WONDER WHETHER THE THOUGHTS ON CAMPUS HAVE CHANGED GIVEN WHAT'’S GOING ON.

KIDS WHO ARE NOW COMING-OF-AGE, 18, 19, 20, THEY HAVE LIVED WITH MASS SHOOTINGS FOR HOW LONG?

I DON'’T KNOW WHETHER THE GUN GIVES THEM COMFORT OR CONCERN.

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE.

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT -- I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU, BILL, AROUND COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS.

I THINK WE HAVE TRIED IT.

I HAVE GONE TO THE STATEHOUSE.

LOTS OF MOMS HAVE GONE UP AND HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING, TESTIFYING AROUND COMMON SENSE GUN CONTROL AND WE NEED IT.

I THINK LAWMAKERS NEED TO STEP UP ON BOTH SIDES.

TOO MANY FAMILIES ARE BEING IMPACTED BY GUN VIOLENCE AND I JUST THINK IT IS -- AGAIN, THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE NOT GOING TO BRING OUR CHILDREN BACK OR OUR FAMILY MEMBERS, BUT WE HAVE TO FIX IT.

YOU ARE CORRECT AROUND WE HAVE BEEN TALKING WAY TOO LONG AND WE DO THESE, YEAH, MY GOD, THIS HAPPENED AGAIN.

I DO BELIEVE IT'’S IMPORTANT FOR US TO GET OUR HANDS AROUND IT IN RHODE ISLAND.

IF IT IS LAW OR LET'’S GET IT PASSED.

WE HAVE TO GET COMMON SENSE GUN CONTROL.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE NATIONAL DISCUSSION?

>> WHAT ABOUT IT?

>> I HAVE BEEN ON THIS SHOW AND I HAVE SAID QUITE PLAINLY WE NEED GUN CONTROL BECAUSE WHAT'’S HAPPENING IS OUTRAGEOUS.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

I HAVE VERY LITTLE CONFIDENCE OR HOPE THAT, ON A NATIONAL LEVEL, WE ARE GOING TO SEE ANY KIND OF CONSENSUS ABOUT DOING SOMETHING.

WHICH IS PROBLEMATIC AT THE STATE LEVEL BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOME STATES THAT AN ACT STRICTER GUN LAWS -- THAT ENACT STRICTER GUN LAWS AND OTHERS THAT DON'’T.

WE HAVE POROUS BORDERS BETWEEN THE STATES AND THE RESULT IS NOT MUCH WILL CHANGE, I DON'’T THINK, SO IT'’S A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM.

IT IS WHEN WE HAVE TO ADDRESS BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF MASS SHOOTINGS WE ARE EXPERIENCING IS GOING UP.

IT IS DANGEROUS.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

IT IS WRONG.

IT'’S TERRIFYING AND IT'’S HEARTBREAKING.

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AS A SOCIETY BECAUSE BILL IS RIGHT.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GUN VIOLENCE HERE THAT MOST OTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRIES DO NOT HAVE.

>> YEAH.

AND IT'’S BECAUSE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

YOU GO TO CANADA, THERE'’S NO SECOND AMENDMENT.

THAT IS THE DISCUSSION YOU HAVE EVERY YEAR AT THE STATEHOUSE.

A LOT OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT ADVOCATES THINK, IF YOU GIVE AN INCH, THEY WILL TAKE MY GUNS AWAY.

THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

FOR SENATE PRESIDENT DOMINIC RUGGERIO -- SENATE PRESIDENT DOMINIC RUGGERIO HAS BEEN IN DISCUSSIONS WITH BALLY'’S FOR I GAMING.

YOU WOULD ABLE -- WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SPORTS GAMBLING ON YOUR PHONE.

NOW THE SENATE PRESIDENT SAYS YOU CAN DO THIS ONLINE AND NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

MORE REVENUE FOR THE STATE.

SOME THINK THAT MIGHT MAKE GAMBLING MORE EASY AND MAYBE THAT'’S NOT GOOD.

>> I HAVE WORKED A LITTLE BIT IN THE PAST FOR IGT.

I DON'’T NOW, BUT I HAVE SAID THIS ON THE PROGRAM BEFORE.

WHEN ISSUES HAVE COME UP LIKE SPORTS GAMBLING, I AM NOT A BIG GAMBLING PERSON, FRANKLY, BUT GAMBLING IS HERE TO STAY.

IT'’S NOT GOING AWAY.

IT HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

IT OBVIOUSLY HAS EVOLVED WITH THE ONSET OF CELL PHONES AND APPS AND THINGS THAT MAKE IT EASIER TO DO.

I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GAMBLE.

THE ISSUE IS NOT ANYMORE ARE WE GOING TO HAVE GAMBLING OR NOT?

WE HAVE GAMBLING, NOW WE HAVE LEGALIZED GAMBLING, AND NOW THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

I DON'’T THINK IT -- IT IS A RELATIVELY NEW PROPOSAL.

I DON'’T THINK IT'’S BEEN FULLY VETTED BUT THE SENATE PRESIDENT HAS MADE IT CLEAR.

I'’M SURE THE HOUSE WILL TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

YOU KNOW IT CERTAINLY WILL GENERATE INCOME.

THERE'’S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

WITH THAT, AND JUST AS WITH SPORTS GAMBLING, THERE ARE DOWNSIDES.

THERE WILL BE AN ATTRACTION TO PEOPLE AND STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IT NATIONALLY THAT THE PROLIFERATION OF MORE GAMBLING DOES LEAD TO MORE ISSUES, MAINLY WITH PEOPLE GAMBLING WHO CANNOT AFFORD IT, CANNOT CONTROL THEMSELVES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

>> AND DO NOT HAVE TO LEAVE THEIR HOUSE TO LOSE THEIR SHIRT.

>> IT IS A CHALLENGE, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, BUT AGAIN, IT'’S AN ISSUE UP TO THE POSITIVES OUTWEIGH THE NEGATIVES?

HOW DO YOU ADDRESS IT TO PROPERLY DEAL WITH THOSE THINGS?

BUT IT IS NOT GOING AWAY.

I THINK WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT AND, IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE IT, PUT IN PLACE PROCESSES THAT MAKE IT, YOU KNOW, AS GOOD AS THAT CAN BE -- AS IT CAN BE.

>> LET ME START OFF BY SAYING THAT, WHEN I WORKED FOR GTECH IN THE 1990'’S, HELPED WHEEL SOME OF THE FIRST VIDEO SLOT MACHINES INTO LINCOLN GREYHOUND PARK BECAUSE I HELPED WRITE THE SOFTWARE.

ALL THAT BEING SAID, I THINK THAT RHODE ISLAND IS RELYING FAR TOO MUCH ON SINS AND SIN TAXES FOR OUR REVENUE, GAMBLING TAXES, MARIJUANA TAXES.

WHAT WE ARE NOT DOING EFFECTIVELY IS WE ARE NOT GROWING OUR ECONOMY.

WE ARE NOT PROVIDING THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENT FOR BUSINESSES TO COME HERE TO BRING JOBS AND TO RAISE EVERYBODY'’S BOAT.

INSTEAD, WE ARE TAXING ALL THESE DIFFERENT SIN-TYPE ACTIVITIES, WHICH IS FINE, BECAUSE WE ARE STARVED FOR REVENUE AND HAVE PEOPLE WHO WANT MORE AND MORE TAXES AND WE WENT TO SPEND OUR MONEY AS OPPOSED TO DOING THINGS TO HELP EVERYONE BUILD SOME WEALTH, AND I THINK WE NEED TO BE BETTER THAN THAT.

WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT OF SINS TO TAX AT SOME POINT AND THEN WHAT ARE WE LEFT WITH?

>> WE HAVE TO CREATE NEW SINS.

>> I UNDERSTAND WHERE THE PRESIDENT IS COMING FROM FROM THE REVENUE PERSPECTIVE.

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE ACCESSIBILITY AND HOW EASY THAT WILL BE YOU, ESPECIALLY FOR CHILDREN.

YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE THAT CANNOT AFFORD TO BE GAMBLING, SO AGAIN, I THINK WE NEED TO ENSURE THERE'’S PROPER CONTROLS AND REGULATIONS IN PLACE SO THIS ACCESS TO GAMBLING IS NOT GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE EVEN MORE IN POVERTY BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE, MY GOD, IF I GAMBLE, MAYBE I WILL WIN, BUT YOU MAY LOSE WHAT YOU DON'’T HAVE.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH IT WITH CHILDREN?

WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR KIDS STARTING AT A VERY EARLY AGE.

TECHNOLOGY IS AT THEIR FINGERTIPS, RIGHT?

SO I THINK I UNDERSTAND I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU AS IT RELATES TO BUSINESSES NOT JUST COMING INTO THE STATE BUT BUSINESSES HERE IN RHODE ISLAND TO GROW IN SCALE SO THEY CAN DRIVE A REVENUE STREAM AS WELL AND WE ARE NOT SEEING A LOT OF ROBUST INVESTMENT IN BUSINESSES WITH HUGE POTENTIAL SUCH AS BLACK AND BROWN BUSINESSES THAT ARE STARVING IN MANY CASES.

>> IT'’S INTERESTING HOW THE VIEW ON GAMBLING HAS CHANGED.

WHEN YOU WERE WORKING FOR GTECH IN THE 1990'’S, THEY HAD THAT PROPOSAL FOR FIVE DIFFERENT PLACES, CASINOS.

THEY ALL WENT DOWN IN A FLAMING MESS.

YOU ALSO HAD A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR WHO SAID I WILL WIELD THE VETO PEN.

BUT IT SEEMS KIND OF HO-HUM -- AND I REALIZE TIMES CHANGE -- BUT DO YOU REMEMBER THE ANTIGAMBLING FEVER BACK THEN?

EVERYONE NOW SEEMS TO BE LIKE, YOU WANT TO GAMBLE, YOU WANT TO GAMBLE.

>> IT HAS BECOME SOCIALLY MORE ACCEPTABLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND WE RELAXED LAWS ABOUT GAMBLING.

TO BILL'’S POINT, IS IT INEVITABLE?

IT IS.

GIVEN THAT FRAMING, DOES IT MAKE SENSE FOR US TO EMBRACE IT?

POSSIBLY, BUT MY BIGGER POINT IS THAT WE CANNOT HAVE AN EFFECTIVE SOCIETY AND IT'’S NOT A GREAT SOURCE OF REVENUE TO BE LOOKING AT THAT KIND OF FUNDING TO KEEP THINGS GOING IN THIS STATE AS OPPOSED TO DOING THE THINGS WE NEED TO DO TO REALLY BUILD A STRONG ECONOMY.

>> WHAT ABOUT THAT?

>> THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE HEARD KEN ADMIT THAT HE AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE ASSOCIATED WITH PROBLEMS FROM GAMBLING BACK WHEN HE WIELDED THOSE MACHINES -- WHEN HE WHEELED THOSE MACHINES IN.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE SAFEGUARDS?

WHAT LISA TALKED ABOUT, KIDS BEING ABLE TO, SETTING UP FAKE PROFILES AND ALL THAT.

>> IT'’S A PROBLEM, BUT IT'’S -- IT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED.

I DON'’T WANT TO BE REPETITIVE BUT IT'’S NOT GOING AWAY.

LISA IS RIGHT.

I HAVE A GRANDSON WHO IS MORE ADEPT AT ELECTRONICS AND PHONES AND APPS THAN I AM, BUT THAT IS THE WORLD NOW, AND WHETHER IT'’S EDUCATING KIDS AND WHERE THE FUTURE OF JOBS ARE, NOBODY KNOWS BETTER THAN KEN THAT THAT'’S THE AREA WHERE THERE IS A GROWING ECONOMY GOING FORWARD.

THESE BUSINESSES, LIKE GAMBLING, ARE NOT IMMUNE TO THAT.

THEY RECOGNIZE THAT AND IT IS THE SAME CONCERNS PEOPLE HAVE HAD WITH SPORTS GAMBLING, THAT YOU CAN GAMBLE THROUGH YOUR CELL PHONE, AND THEY HAVE PUT SOME RESTRICTIONS.

IT IS RELATIVELY NEW SO I'’M NOT SURE HOW WELL THEY ARE WORKING BUT WE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT.

BUT BOTTOM LINE IS PEOPLE HAVE TO BE READY TO REALIZE THAT IT IS HERE TO STAY, IT'’S GOING TO ALLOW -- GAMBLING IS NO LONGER GOING TO BE ONLY AT A CASINO WHERE YOU HAVE TO GO TO A LOCATION AND PUT A CHIP ON THE TABLE AND PLAY CARDS.

YOU CAN DO IT ON THE INTERNET NOW, SOME LEGAL, SOME LEGAL, AND I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER STEP IN THAT DIRECTION.

>> HOW HELPFUL IS IT TO HAVE A 10-YEAR-OLD WHEN YOU CANNOT FIGURE OUT THE APP ON YOUR PHONE?

>> OR HOW TO TURN THE TV ON.

>> THE VERY BASICS, RIGHT?

THE FIRE FIGHTER DISABILITY DISCUSSION HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS AND IN LAW ENFORCEMENT IN GENERAL.

THERE'’S A BILL BACK THIS YEAR THAT WOULD GRANT -- KEN, I WILL HAVE YOU SET THE TABLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FOR YEARS.

BASICALLY, IF YOU HAVE HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, HYPERTENSION, IT WOULD BE PRESUMED TO BE JOB-RELATED.

THIS WENT ON WITH THE POLICE YEARS AGO.

NOW IT IS BACK.

THERE'’S ALSO PTSD INVOLVED.

SET THE TABLE.

>> THE FIREFIGHTERS ARGUABLY HAVE THE STRONGEST, MOST EFFECTIVE LOBBY IN THE ENTIRE STATE.

THEY REALLY SEEM TO CONTROL POLITICS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, THE STATE LEVEL.

THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT GETTING THINGS THEY WANT AND THEY ARE PERSISTENT.

THEY ASK FOR MORE AND MORE.

THIS PARTICULAR SET OF BILLS IS TROUBLESOME TO ME FOR A COUPLE REASONS.

WHILE THERE ARE SOME VERY FIT AND ACTIVE FIREFIGHTERS, THERE ARE ALSO SOME THAT VERY MUCH ARE NOT.

THEY ARE OBESE AND HAVE OTHER ISSUES.

SO IF THEY HAVE HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE AND HYPERTENSION, THE SAME THING, OR OTHER ISSUES, DO WE HAVE -- IS THERE REALLY, MEDICALLY, IS IT TRUE THAT THEIR CONDITION IS BROUGHT UPON BY THEIR JOB AS OPPOSED TO THE GENERAL STATE OF THEIR HEALTH?

ADDITIONALLY, THERE ARE MANY FIREFIGHTERS WHO WORK OTHER JOBS BESIDES BEING A FIREFIGHTER.

IF THEY ARE ENGAGED IN JOBS, SECOND JOBS THAT ARE STRESSFUL OR HAVE OTHER NEGATIVE HEALTH CONSEQUENCES TO THEM, WHY SHOULD THE TAXPAYERS BEAR THE BURDEN OF WHATEVER THE FALLOUT MIGHT BE FROM THOSE OTHER JOBS?

SO I THINK IT'’S DANGEROUS TO HAVE -- TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING IN A GENERALIZED WAY, BUT NOW WE ARE TRYING TO GENERALIZE THE REASONS THAT A FIREFIGHTER HAS POOR HEALTH DOWN THE LINE.

LET'’S FACE IT.

A GREAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE HYPERTENSION AS THEY GET OLDER.

IT'’S BECOME A FACT OF LIFE TO A LARGE EXTENT.

AND SO, IS IT FAIR TO TAXPAYERS THAT, WHEN SOME FIREFIGHTERS INEVITABLY GET HYPERTENSION, THAT IT SHOULD BE BLAMED UPON THE JOB AND GIVE THEM A VERY RICH RETIREMENT PACKAGE?

>> AND THE FISCAL RAMIFICATIONS.

IT IS TWO THIRDS TAX-FREE.

>> THERE'’S ALL KIND OF THINGS THAT COME ALONG WITH IT.

IN MANY WAYS, I THINK IT'’S A BAD POLICY.

IT DOES NOT FOLLOW THE SCIENCE, BUT I ALSO AM A REALIST HERE, AND BECAUSE OF HOW EFFECTIVELY THE FIREFIGHTERS SEEM TO GET WHAT THEY WANT, I DON'’T THINK MUCH PUSHBACK WILL DO MUCH TO STOP THIS REQUEST FROM BECOMING LAW.

>> LISA?

>> YOU BROUGHT UP SOME REALLY GREAT POINTS AROUND WHEN DO WE STOP?

IN ANOTHER -- CAN ANOTHER -- MAYBE THE POLICE OFFICERS SAY, I WANT THE SAME THING?

THE TEACHERS.

HOW DO WE CONTROL AROUND THE POINT OF SOMEBODY NOT TAKING CARE OF THEMSELVES, POOR HEALTH, JUST, YOU KNOW, NOT TAKING PRECAUTIONS, SO I DO AGREE THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE PAYING FOR SOMEBODY TO JUST KIND OF EAT BAD AND GET, YOU KNOW, FAT AND OVERWEIGHT AND SAYS, IT IS RELATED TO MY JOB.

THE OTHER POINT I SHOULD MAKE, I THINK IT SHOULD BE REALLY UP TO THE DOCTORS TO DETERMINE IF THIS PERSON SHOULD BE CITED AS JOB-RELATED OR NOT, BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT'’S NOT.

IT NEEDS TO BE PROVEN.

I DO AGREE THAT THE LOBBYISTS WILL PROBABLY MOST LIKELY PUSH IT THROUGH.

I THINK THE FIRE DEPARTMENTS AND UNIONS HAVE STRONG RELATIONSHIPS WITH LEGISLATORS.

SO THIS IS ONE THAT THEY PROBABLY WILL BE SUCCESSFUL AND THEN THE TAXPAYER WILL HAVE TO COVER THEIR RETIREMENT OR BENEFITS, WHICH I DON'’T REALLY AGREE WITH, BECAUSE THEN, SIGN ME UP, RIGHT?

MANY PEOPLE COULD SAY THE SAME THING.

>> I DID A STORY YEARS AGO, WHEN THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT HAVING FITNESS TESTS AFTER YOU GOT ON THE POLICE FORCE, AND THE WHOLE PRESUMPTION, YOU COULD EAT A DOZEN DONUTS TODAY, SMOKE 10 PACKS OF CIGARETTES AND THAT WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED STRESS-RELATED.

THE ISSUE I HAVE IS ONCE THIS IS GRANTED YOU DON'’T GO BACK TO LOOK.

IF I RETIRE AND HAVE A DECENT PENSION AND CAN SIT ON THE BEACH, MAYBE MY BLOOD PRESSURE WOULD GO DOWN.

I DON'’T SEE THAT PROVISION ONCE THE DECISION IS MADE.

>> THE DIFFERENCE WITH THIS BILL IS THE HYPERTENSION ISSUE IS MAYBE TOO MUCH -- ISSUE GETS MAYBE TOO MUCH FOCUS.

THE ISSUE I HAVE SEEN IS, THE NEW ISSUE, THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS AND WHETHER THAT SHOULD BE A QUALIFYING PROBLEM FOR A FIREFIGHTER.

AND, LOOK, I THINK THERE ARE SOME PROVISIONS WERE MEDICAL PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED AND THERE CAN BE CHALLENGES MADE AND REVIEWS DONE, BUT I HAVE TO SAYL AND I'’M NOT -- SAY, AND I DON'’T REPRESENT ANY FIREFIGHTERS AT THE STATEHOUSE, SO I DON'’T HAVE A DOG IN THAT FIGHT, BUT I'’M LEAVING TO GO TO COURT.

I'’M NOT RUNNING INTO A BURNING COURTHOUSE.

I'’M NOT SHOWING UP AT THE SCENE OF A CAR ACCIDENT AND PICKING SOMEONE'’S HAND UP AND IT'’S NOT CONNECTED TO THEIR BODY ANYMORE.

THESE ARE THINGS WE REQUIRE OUR FIREFIGHTERS TO DO IN RHODE ISLAND ON A DAILY BASIS.

AND I THINK YOU CANNOT IGNORE THAT.

SO I THINK IT WILL BE A LIVELY DISCUSSION AND I THINK THAT FIREFIGHTERS, AND, FRANKLY, POLICE OFFICERS DO DEAL WITH ISSUES OF SIGNIFICANT PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPORT THAT MANY OF US DON'’T.

I DON'’T.

>> BUT HAVEN'’T THEY ALWAYS?

ISN'’T THAT PART OF THE PROFESSION?

IS THAT WORSENED 2023 THAN IN 1983?

>> UNFORTUNATELY YES.

THAT'’S A CRITIQUE OF US AS A SOCIETY.

WE STARTED THIS DISCUSSION THIS MORNING TALKING ABOUT MASS SHOOTINGS, WHICH HAVE UNFORTUNATELY BECOME SORT OF ALMOST AN ACKNOWLEDGED REGULAR EVENT NOW AND I DON'’T THINK THEY WERE 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO, AND ETHIC WE HAVE CHANGED, NOT ALWAYS -- AND I THINK WE HAVE CHANGED, NOT ALWAYS IN A POSITIVE WAY, SO I THINK THE RESPONSIBILITIES AND ISSUES FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE OFFICERS DEAL WITH HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY OVER THE PAST 30, 40, 50 YEARS AND WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

>> YOU GET THE FINAL WORD.

>> WHY DOES HE GET THE FINAL WORD?

>> YOU TALKED A LOT.

>> WE STARTED WITH YOU.

WE DON'’T HAVE A STOPPED CLOCK.

I AM KEEPING IT GOING IN MY HEAD.

>> IT'’S -- AT SOME POINT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

THE FIREFIGHTERS COME BACK TO THE TABLE EVERY SESSION.

THEY ASK FOR MORE AND MORE.

I BELIEVE THAT, IN A SMALL NUMBER OF CIRCUMSTANCES, WHERE THERE IS A PARTICULAR REASON FOR RETIREMENT DUE TO DISABILITY, THAT IT SHOULD BE GRANTED, AND IF WE CAN PROVIDE IT TAX-FREE AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

TO DO IT ACROSS THE BOARD IS SILLY.

TAXPAYERS SHOULD NOT BE ON THE HOOK TO DO IT.

THERE WILL BE PEOPLE THAT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A SITUATION LIKE THAT.

ULTIMATELY, LOOK, FIREFIGHTERS ARE NOT NAIVE.

THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR WHEN THEY DO THE JOB.

EVERY FIREFIGHTER -- WILL EVERY FIREFIGHTER RETIRE ON DISABILITY BECAUSE OF PTSD?

BECAUSE IF THAT IS WHERE WE ARE GOING, IT IS A RIDICULOUS PROPOSAL AND WE SHOULD NOT DO IT.

>> LET'’S GO TO OUTRAGES AND OR KUDOS.

>> I AM OUTRAGED AROUND THE HOMELESS SITUATION..

I READ AN ARTICLE RECENTLY WHERE THAT COLD SPELL WE HAD RECENTLY, SEVERAL PEOPLE DIED FROM BEING OUTSIDE.

WE HAVE TO FIX THIS HOUSING CRISIS WE HAVE IN THIS STATE.

I AM OUTRAGED THAT WE HAVE A SURPLUS AND YET PEOPLE ARE DYING ON BENCHES IN OUR STATE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE APPOINTMENT OF HOUSING SECRETARY?

>> I WORKED WITH HIM WHEN HE WAS COMMERCE SECRETARY.

I BELIEVE HE BRINGS A LOT TO THE TABLE.

I THINK HE NEEDS TO MOBILIZE THE LARGER COMMUNITY.

AGAIN, THAT'’S NOT REALLY HIS BACKGROUND.

HE HAS SOME TRANSFERABLE SKILLS HE WILL BE ABLE TO LEVERAGE.

HOWEVER, I THINK HE NEEDS TO BE PLUGGED INTO THE COMMUNITY, TALK TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE DONE IT FOR A LONG TIME.

THIS IS AN ISSUE WEHAVE HAD FOR DECADES, BUT I THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH SMART PEOPLE IN RHODE ISLAND THAT WE CAN GET OUR HANDS AROUND WE NEED MORE HOMES AND HOMES THAT ARE ACTUALLY AFFORDABLE.

I MEAN, NOT THESE $3000 LOFTS THAT NO ONE CAN AFFORD THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT ARE HOMELESS AND SHUT OUT FROM ACCESS.

WE HAVE TO FIX THIS.

I AM OUTRAGED THAT WE HAVE THIS SURPLUS AND WE STILL HAVE PEOPLE DYING ON THE STREET.

>> BILL?

>> I WILL GIVE A KUDOS TO THE SPEAKER, WHO I THINK HAS DONE AN UNBELIEVABLY GOOD JOB AT OPENING THINGS UP AND BEING TRANSPARENT AND WORKING WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE AND BEING CLOSER SINCE HE WAS SPEAKER, AND I HAVE BEEN TOLD THERE WILL BE A SETTLEMENT OF THE PENDING LAWSUIT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FILED WITH RESPECT TO JCLS MAY BE AS SOON AS TODAY WITH ESSENTIALLY THE COMPLAINT BEING WITHDRAWN.

I THINK THERE WAS A POLITICAL ISSUE IN PLAY THERE AND I'’M HAPPY TO HEAR THAT AND I HOPE I'’M CORRECT.

>> THAT WAS THE ISSUE WITH JCLS MEETING AND VOTING.

>> IF IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, WE WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE.

I WILL CALL YOU EVERY DAY.

>> HE'’S GOT MY NUMBER.

>> WHAT DO YOU HAVE?

>> I HAVE AN OUTRAGE.

THE NO-BID 84 THOUSAND DOLLARS LOBBYING CONTRACT GIVEN TO ALLAN FUNG BY THE RHODE ISLAND PUBLIC TRANSIT ASSOCIATION,'’S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OR CHAIRMAN IS THE FORMER REPUBLICAN MAYOR OF WARWICK.

FIRST, THAT OUR PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION AGENCY NEEDS A LOBBYIST SEEMS A LITTLE CRAZY, THAT WE ARE SPENDING TAXPAYER MONEY TO GET MORE TAXPAYER MONEY, BUT TO DO IT NO-BID, WHAT APPEARS TO BE A SWEETHEART DEAL.

I BELIEVE -- I WILL HOLD ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL ACCOUNTABLE IF THEY ARE ABUSING TAXPAYERS THAT THEY ARE REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS.

FOR THE REPUBLICANS AS THE PARTY IN OPPOSITION TO BEHAVE JUST LIKE DEMOCRATS IN TERMS OF ABUSING TAXPAYERS, YOU LOSE ONE OF THE FEW SELLING POINTS YOU HAVE TO THE VOTING PUBLIC.

I THINK IT IS A PROBLEM.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS THAT IT HAPPENED.

I AM GLAD THE BOARD IS TALKING ABOUT UNRAVELING THAT.

SO A PARTIAL KUDOS TO THAT, BUT SHAME ON EVERYONE ELSE INVOLVED FOR THIS SCHEME, WHICH WAS ILL-ADVISED.

>> AND HE -- AND THEY FACE SERIOUS FISCAL ISSUES.

THEY WILL HAVE BIG PROBLEMS OVER THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS.

>> PLEASE REPUBLICANS, YOU JUST HAVE TO WATCH THEM EVERY MINUTE -- THESE REPUBLICANS, YOU JUST HAVE TO WATCH THEM EVERY MINUTE.

YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO PULL.

I AGREE.

>> THAT IS THE TIME WE HAVE.

BILL, KEN AND LISA, NICE TO HAVE YOU.

FINALLY, WE SAY GOODBYE TO ONE OF THE KEY PLAYERS BEHIND THE SCENES HERE AT LIVELY.

OUR DIRECTOR, SCOTT SARASIN, IS LEAVING RHODE ISLAND PBS AFTER A 26 YEAR RUN AT THE STATION FOR A NEW OPPORTUNITY.

IN ADDITION TO KEEPING US IN LINE ON THIS SHOW, HE'’S AN AWARD-WINNING PRODUCER WHO HAS PUT TOGETHER GREAT AWARD-WINNING DOCUMENTARIES OVER THE YEARS.

HE GUIDED US THROUGH THIS TRANSITION TO THE NEW SET.

TRUTH BE TOLD, HE ALWAYS HAD MY BACK TO HIDE THE OCCASIONAL BLOOPER IN THE STUDIO.

HE'’S HAD THE DISTINCTION OF WORKING WITH ALL OF MY PREDECESSORS IN THE MODERATOR'’S CHAIR.

AND HE'’S BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN THEY USE HOLD UP YOU CARDS INDICATING -- THEY USED TO HOLD UP CUE CARDS INDICATING HOW MUCH TIME WE HAVE LEFT IN THE SHOW.

AFTER A WELL-DESERVED VACATION, HE WILL BEGIN AT THE RHODE ISLAND FILM AND TELEVISION OFFICE LATER THIS MONTH.

OUR LOSS IS CERTAINLY THERE AGAIN.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR STEADY PRESENCE WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT.

WE WISH YOU LUCK WITH THE NEW GIG.

WE HAVE THE REST OF YOU CAN JOIN US BACK HERE NEXT WEEK AS THE LIVELY EXPERIMENT CONTINUES.

♪ >> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I AM JOHN HAZEN WHITE JUNIOR.

A LIVELY EXPERIMENT HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF THE POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I'’M A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS GREAT